Both great in their events but ultimately hurdles is a "softer" event. There's no denying it. Same reason why Duplantis can't be considered alongside other male competitors.
True, but even if you convert her Hurdle times and account for the historical lack of talent, the only women who are at or just below her are Chebet and Kipyegon.
American bias. I was listening to a citrus mag segment on the best coaches for 2024. Patrick Sang didn’t even get a mention (Faith 1 G 1 S + Ronald Kwemoi 1S)
If you want to talk about bias, let's talk about the bias that Rojo clearly has against Sydney.
Rojo routinely starts anti-Sydney threads.
He wrote, "Unlike Sydney, Beatrice wasn't afraid to compete early and often" and mentioned Sydney not running an individual event until May, without acknowledging: 1) Sydney ran more track races this year than Beatrice, 2) Sydney ran a relay race in April, and 3) the Track & Field News article includes a quote from Sydney disclosing, "I still battled some of those knee injuries, early this season. We really had to take it one week at a time, one month at a time and make up the schedule as we went.” As a reminder, those knee injuries forced Sydney to withdraw from the world championships last year.
He frames Sydney's decisions as being based on fear, using the word "afraid" twice in his first post.
He continually criticizes Sydney for not going for two individual golds in Paris without acknowledging that the Olympic schedule wasn't conducive to a 400m-400 hurdles double the way it was for the distance doubles and the 100-200 double.
He repeatedly singles out Sydney for not running the mixed 4x400 and blames her for the U.S. not winning gold in that event, even though there were other American stars who didn't run that relay either.
He doesn't give Sydney any credit for running the fastest women's 4x400 relay leg in over 40 years.
Of course a sprinter is going to run more track events overall than a 5000/10000/XC runner. Someone who regularly runs 10-20x the distance will find it harder to race with the same frequency as a 200-400m Hurdler.
The relay race SML ran was at Mt Sac Relays, I have to agree with Rojo that this is not comparable to winning two international XC races, one of which was World XC.
The schedule allowed her to compete in the Mixed 4x400m. Since the schedule didn’t allow her to double in two individual events, she needed to maximize the amount of relay golds she can get since they are less prestigious than Individual golds. Why didn’t she?
If you want to talk about bias, let's talk about the bias that Rojo clearly has against Sydney.
Rojo routinely starts anti-Sydney threads.
He wrote, "Unlike Sydney, Beatrice wasn't afraid to compete early and often" and mentioned Sydney not running an individual event until May, without acknowledging: 1) Sydney ran more track races this year than Beatrice, 2) Sydney ran a relay race in April, and 3) the Track & Field News article includes a quote from Sydney disclosing, "I still battled some of those knee injuries, early this season. We really had to take it one week at a time, one month at a time and make up the schedule as we went.” As a reminder, those knee injuries forced Sydney to withdraw from the world championships last year.
He frames Sydney's decisions as being based on fear, using the word "afraid" twice in his first post.
He continually criticizes Sydney for not going for two individual golds in Paris without acknowledging that the Olympic schedule wasn't conducive to a 400m-400 hurdles double the way it was for the distance doubles and the 100-200 double.
He repeatedly singles out Sydney for not running the mixed 4x400 and blames her for the U.S. not winning gold in that event, even though there were other American stars who didn't run that relay either.
He doesn't give Sydney any credit for running the fastest women's 4x400 relay leg in over 40 years.
Of course a sprinter is going to run more track events overall than a 5000/10000/XC runner. Someone who regularly runs 10-20x the distance will find it harder to race with the same frequency as a 200-400m Hurdler.
The relay race SML ran was at Mt Sac Relays, I have to agree with Rojo that this is not comparable to winning two international XC races, one of which was World XC.
The schedule allowed her to compete in the Mixed 4x400m. Since the schedule didn’t allow her to double in two individual events, she needed to maximize the amount of relay golds she can get since they are less prestigious than Individual golds. Why didn’t she?
Your first two paragraphs are beside the point. My point is Rojo’s comment about Sydney’s racing schedule showed his bias against her because he didn’t acknowledge the facts I enumerated. He painted a picture that was incomplete and inaccurate.
No, Sydney didn’t “need” to run the mixed relay. She needed to focus on her primary event, and that focus paid off with a world record and dominant victory. Overall, she did enough to earn the AOY recognition she’s received from both World Athletics and Track & Field News. I don’t think she’s losing any sleep over her stellar performances not being great enough for some biased distance running fans.
I post there and really like the forum, especially the policy of not wasting time on doping discussion unless it's a confirmed result.
But no question there has been a heavy pro-Sydney bias for years. That's true in the feature articles and also in the forum comments from administrator/moderators.
If Sydney has any case at all she's going to get the nod with them.
IMO, it should have been Chebet or Mahuchikh. I wasn't sure there would be a high jump world record anywhere in nearby decades. Mahuchikh is penalized only because she did it early in the year. Place that world record after Paris and she'd get considerably more support.
American bias. I was listening to a citrus mag segment on the best coaches for 2024. Patrick Sang didn’t even get a mention (Faith 1 G 1 S + Ronald Kwemoi 1S)
If you want to talk about bias, let's talk about the bias that Rojo clearly has against Sydney.
Rojo routinely starts anti-Sydney threads.
He wrote, "Unlike Sydney, Beatrice wasn't afraid to compete early and often" and mentioned Sydney not running an individual event until May, without acknowledging: 1) Sydney ran more track races this year than Beatrice, 2) Sydney ran a relay race in April, and 3) the Track & Field News article includes a quote from Sydney disclosing, "I still battled some of those knee injuries, early this season. We really had to take it one week at a time, one month at a time and make up the schedule as we went.” As a reminder, those knee injuries forced Sydney to withdraw from the world championships last year.
He frames Sydney's decisions as being based on fear, using the word "afraid" twice in his first post.
He continually criticizes Sydney for not going for two individual golds in Paris without acknowledging that the Olympic schedule wasn't conducive to a 400m-400 hurdles double the way it was for the distance doubles and the 100-200 double.
He repeatedly singles out Sydney for not running the mixed 4x400 and blames her for the U.S. not winning gold in that event, even though there were other American stars who didn't run that relay either.
He doesn't give Sydney any credit for running the fastest women's 4x400 relay leg in over 40 years.
I think you make a bunch of valid points, Ultimately in the mixed 4x4 we got only one swap, and we would have won if we took it seriously and made any of the three swaps (Hall or Benjamin for Deadmon would have easly saved 1.5 seconds minimum, or SML for either Brown or Little would have saved probably closer to 2), but we made zero swaps. Arguably Benjamin had no excuse as he wasn't running any race the next day, while the others did have some heats (which SML could have jogged in 55.0 and qualified if she wanted). But since we litteraly swapped nobody, its hard to complain.
SML of Playa Vista did not compete bc Hollywood TV Streamers refused to pay the Hollywood Pro Rates they pay Juan Soto, Shohei Ohtani, LeBron James, etc.
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We have enough Youth, What we need is a Fountain of Smart.
Yes both set a WR and won Olympic gold but Beatrice Chebet also did the following.
1) Unlike Sydney, Beatrice wasn't afraid to compete early and often. Chebet won world xc gold in March. Sydney didn't run an individual event until May. There is no indication that Sydney was "afraid to compete." There is no requirement for her to conduct her racing calendar according to you or anyone else.
2) Chebet's WR was arguably more significant (wrong) as she was the first to break 29:00 in the 10,000. Admittedly, on a percentage basis, Sydney improved it by way more. This is the correct take. 29 is an arbitrary number.
3) Unlike Sydney, Chebet wasn't afraid (Using the word "afraid" is poor logic. There is nothing to suggest she was "afraid.") to go for two individual golds in Paris and she won 2. Sydney won 1. In fact, Sydney's hesitancy to compete in Paris arguably cost the US a mixed 4 x 400 gold. Again, Sydney has no obligationi to make you happy with racing decisions.
4) Unlike Sydney, Chebet competed in and won the DL finale. She also ran 14:09 twice. Do you think had Sydney been allowed to compete in the DL Final that she wouldn't have won? Her racing calendar didn't allow her to qualify for the DL Final. As far as the 14:09 comment, Sydney broke the WR twice this year: taking it from 50.68 to 50.65, and then to 50.37. None of your points are significant enough to sway me to change a position.
Yes both set a WR and won Olympic gold but Beatrice Chebet also did the following.
1) Unlike Sydney, Beatrice wasn't afraid to compete early and often. Chebet won world xc gold in March. Sydney didn't run an individual event until May. There is no indication that Sydney was "afraid to compete." There is no requirement for her to conduct her racing calendar according to you or anyone else.
2) Chebet's WR was arguably more significant (wrong) as she was the first to break 29:00 in the 10,000. Admittedly, on a percentage basis, Sydney improved it by way more. This is the correct take. 29 is an arbitrary number.
3) Unlike Sydney, Chebet wasn't afraid (Using the word "afraid" is poor logic. There is nothing to suggest she was "afraid.") to go for two individual golds in Paris and she won 2. Sydney won 1. In fact, Sydney's hesitancy to compete in Paris arguably cost the US a mixed 4 x 400 gold. Again, Sydney has no obligationi to make you happy with racing decisions.
4) Unlike Sydney, Chebet competed in and won the DL finale. She also ran 14:09 twice. Do you think had Sydney been allowed to compete in the DL Final that she wouldn't have won? Her racing calendar didn't allow her to qualify for the DL Final. As far as the 14:09 comment, Sydney broke the WR twice this year: taking it from 50.68 to 50.65, and then to 50.37. None of your points are significant enough to sway me to change a position.
Got anything else?
I think the athlete year should have the most robust/impressive list of accomplishments.
Sydney has an excellent pair of World Records in the same event, a historically great relay leg at the Olympics. Some good wins on the circuit, but not world-leading times in her off events. That very well could be because of conditions and such, but we can't project that she should've run 48-low or 21-mid.
Chebet meanwhile has a track world record at 10,000, World XC gold, 2 Olympic golds, a Road 5K World Record. I think it's fair to say her beating Kipyegon in the 5,000 would be akin to Sydney beating Paulino in the 400. That she actually did it in a second individual event is to her credit.
It just seems like Chebet has a more robust case. Sydney is probably the best athlete in track, and is certainly the most dominant in her event. There's reason to believe that if she tried to match Chebet's range of accomplishments she could by winning an additional championship early like World Indoors (400), a secondary gold medal (400m), and dropping a historic mark in the 400 at some point. But the award should go to the athlete who did those things, which was Chebet.
Some good wins on the circuit, but not world-leading times in her off events. That very well could be because of conditions and such, but we can't project that she should've run 48-low or 21-mid.
Essentially, we can. For example, earlier in the year she dropped down in distance and defeated the Olympic 200m champion (Gabby Thomas, who has run 21.60) in dominant fashion.
People are obviously underestimating the magnitude of Sydney's accomplishments.
Some good wins on the circuit, but not world-leading times in her off events. That very well could be because of conditions and such, but we can't project that she should've run 48-low or 21-mid.
Essentially, we can. For example, earlier in the year she dropped down in distance and defeated the Olympic 200m champion (Gabby Thomas, who has run 21.60) in dominant fashion.
People are obviously underestimating the magnitude of Sydney's accomplishments.
Gabby ran almost a second off her best that race. So no, we can’t project times to SML.
I think the athlete year should have the most robust/impressive list of accomplishments.
Sydney has an excellent pair of World Records in the same event, a historically great relay leg at the Olympics. Some good wins on the circuit, but not world-leading times in her off events. That very well could be because of conditions and such, but we can't project that she should've run 48-low or 21-mid.
Chebet meanwhile has a track world record at 10,000, World XC gold, 2 Olympic golds, a Road 5K World Record. I think it's fair to say her beating Kipyegon in the 5,000 would be akin to Sydney beating Paulino in the 400. That she actually did it in a second individual event is to her credit.
It just seems like Chebet has a more robust case. Sydney is probably the best athlete in track, and is certainly the most dominant in her event. There's reason to believe that if she tried to match Chebet's range of accomplishments she could by winning an additional championship early like World Indoors (400), a secondary gold medal (400m), and dropping a historic mark in the 400 at some point. But the award should go to the athlete who did those things, which was Chebet.
With all due respect, I don't think that's a fair statement at all, for three reasons:
1) The 5,000 is not Kipyegon's specialty event like the 400 is for Paulino. Sure, Kipyegon has had tremendous success in the 5,000 in the small number of times she's run it, but her primary event is the 1500. Beating Paulino in a 400 would be more akin to beating Kipyegon in a 1500.
2) Chebet is a 5k-10k runner, like many others today and many runners historically. The 5,000 is just as much her specialty as the 10,000. She ran the 5,000 more than any other distance this year, and she was the Diamond League champion in that event. Her running a 5,000 isn't anything like what it is for Sydney to run a flat 400 while specializing in the hurdles.
3) The 5,000 wasn't Chebet's second individual event in Paris. The 5,000 came first in Chebet's Olympic schedule, and the 5,000 final was scheduled four nights before the 10,000. That means Chebet was fresh when she raced Kipyegon, who was fresh herself because the 1500 heats started after the 5,000 final. It was a fair fight. Then she had several days to rest before the 10,000, and in that event her top competitors and fellow medalists were runners who had also contested the 5,000, making that race a fair fight too.
That's not at all what it would have been like for Sydney to attempt the 400-400h double. To do that double, Sydney would have had to bounce back and forth between the two events on consecutive days. This was the schedule:
August 4: 400 hurdles heats
August 5: 400 heats
August 6: 400 hurdles semis
August 7: 400 semis
August 8: 400 hurdles final
August 9: 400 final
Sydney would have been compromised for both finals while going up against runners who were fresh for each event (yes, Bol had run in the final of the mixed relay on August 3, but she had ample time to recover from that effort). Not a fair fight by any means for either event.
All that said, I agree that Chebet is the deserving Overall Athlete of the Year if we're considering cross country and road running along with track. I don't see how anyone could even debate that. Chebet clearly had the best year overall. As we agreed in the other thread, she had the best year of any distance running woman in the professional era. She was sensational!
If we're talking about Track-Only AOY, then I believe Sydney is deserving for reasons I've articulated in other threads. Both Sydney and Chebet are amazing, and I look forward to seeing what they do this year.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
An athlete of the YEAR award which doesn't consider all achievements in this given year is not worth his name.
World cross country champ in March
10000m track world record in May
Olympic double in August
5k road world record in December
No disrespect for Sydney McLaughlin whoes achievements would be good enough for AOY award in many years, but for 2024 the no. 1 female athlete obviously is Beatrice Chebet.
I think it's fair to say her beating Kipyegon in the 5,000 would be akin to Sydney beating Paulino in the 400.
No, and even you don't believe that. Case in point: A person wins a medal in both the 5000 and 10000 in practically every championship on both the men's and women's side. No person has ever done it in the 400 and 400h.
Neither TFN or LR are entirely objective - the former will side with Americans and latter with distance runners. The only true source would be World Athletics (and even then I have to wonder). TFN is little different than Athletics Weekly - which would have a British bias.
Both SML and Chebet had an excellent year, and both are equally deserving of such an award, something this thread has pedantically tried to "objectify" when really this is all subjective - apples to oranges. Not sure why they don't equally deserve such a title - too much of a "ties are bad" mindset - is this an American thing?