There's no questioning that Chebet's 5,000m victory was phenomenal. I just don't think you appreciate how even more phenomenal 50.37 is. I wonder if people have just gotten so used to Sydney being amazing that they aren't as amazed by what she does anymore. It's similar to the MVP voter fatigue we've seen with NBA stars who dominate every year. But make no mistake: just because this year wasn't the first year that Sydney blew away all her competitors, that doesn't make her 2024 accomplishments any less worthy of recognition.
When Sydney ran 50.68 at the world championships in Eugene, it was a jaw-dropping performance that was difficult to fathom. It was a time that would have placed her 7th in the flat 400! There was a thread earlier this year when noted LRC track historian John Wesley Harding questioned if she could ever run faster. And yet she did. Twice!
Sydney was already the 400m hurdles GOAT before this year. She had reached a level that was beyond other hurdlers' wildest dreams. And yet, somehow, this year she took it to an even higher level. She is the track AOY.
I can only assume that you're a hurdler. Paulino's time was more impressive than Syndey's. Paulino just competes in a comically deeper event. Syndey is incredible, but she isn't what she's hyped up to be, imo.
I'm a distance runner who has respect for all track & field events. You obviously don't, but the AOY voters do. And that's why Sydney is the track AOY.
I can only assume that you're a hurdler. Paulino's time was more impressive than Syndey's. Paulino just competes in a comically deeper event. Syndey is incredible, but she isn't what she's hyped up to be, imo.
I'm a distance runner who has respect for all track & field events. You obviously don't, but the AOY voters do. And that's why Sydney is the track AOY.
I have respect for all events, but I try to be honest in assessing how impressive each performance is. Not saying you don't, we just have different perspectives. The voters definitely have a bias for the shorter events and their voting generally reflects how much Western media coverage an athlete gets, which is to be expected. Also, see my longer response that I posted right before your second to last response. Don't get to talk track much irl so I'm happy to keep this going, lol
This post was edited 25 seconds after it was posted.
You are on to something. I admit that. I am biased against the niche events because so few people really train to the highest level and compete in them.
There are more kids worldwide training to be good at soccer than there are at curling. So the best soccer player has a harder time reaching the top.
The same is true inside our sport. There are more people training to be 100m runners than there are to be hammer throwers. That is just a fact.
But yes, this is why I am so biased towards the major events (100m, 1500m, 5000m).
I am also biased against athletes who don't race much, so I don't really "like" Sydney even though she is amazing at running.
I appreciate you admitting your bias. Just remember that Sydney raced more this year than Chebet did.
I think your point about the hurdles is actually an argument in Sydney's favor. The reason more people don't do the hurdles is they are so difficult. As you noted, you can't just hop in a hurdles race on a whim at the elite level and expect to do well. Hurdling requires significant practice and training to get the technique and the steps right. If it was easy, then any number of the women's 400m semifinalists and finalists from Paris could just run the hurdles and win a medal against supposedly weaker competition.
Sydney can't just focus on running fast. She has to run fast while also focusing on her technique and her steps. She does it better than any other woman in history.
I'm a distance runner who has respect for all track & field events. You obviously don't, but the AOY voters do. And that's why Sydney is the track AOY.
I have respect for all events, but I try to be honest in assessing how impressive each performance is. Not saying you don't, we just have different perspectives. The voters definitely have a bias for the shorter events and their voting generally reflects how much Western media coverage an athlete gets, which is to be expected. Also, see my longer response that I posted right before your second to last response. Don't get to talk track much irl so I'm happy to keep this going, lol
I need to get back to work, but I'll be available later. In the meantime, there was another AOY thread in which I wrote a thorough analysis of all the finalists. I welcome your feedback on what I wrote there.
Can't edit this post for some reason but I just want to emphasize how absurd Chebet's 5000m finish was. The race was essentially a progression run where every 1k was faster than the last. The first 2k were more or less at 15 minute 5k pace. The last 3k was 8:24 (14 min flat 5k pace). However the reason the last 3k was so fast is mostly because of the last 1k to 1500. Chebet's last 1k of 2:33.5 is the fastest last km in the history of the event, as far as I know. And this was in the context of a 8:24 3k, which makes it even more absurd and a 57.5 last lap, indicating she could have run the last 3k and 1k even faster with a more even pace. She ran what was essentially a tactical 3k race against 1500m world record holder Kipyegon (3:49.04 shape) and defeated her easily by over a second. This performance was absolutely mind bogglingly good and probably the best 5000m RACE performance of all time by a woman.
I'm back. Before I respond to the post you asked me to address, I want to revisit this one. You did very well at describing how amazing Chebet ran in her Olympic 5,000m race. You opined that it was "probably" the best race performance of all time in that event. The key word there is "probably". It's highly debatable what is the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time. I'd love to see a thread on that topic because I don't know the answer, but I can identify at least two others that should be considered:
2015 world championships - After a first 2k that was very similar to this year's Olympic final (6:06 in 2015, 6:05 this year), Almaz Ayana ran the final 3k in 8:19 without super shoes to finish the race in a world championship record 14:26. She won that race by more than 17 seconds, absolutely destroying peak Genzebe Dibaba (that was the year Dibaba ran 3:50 and 14:15) and everyone else.
2016 Olympics - Vivian Cheruiyot outclassed Ayana, Obiri, and everyone else. After a faster opening 2k (6:00) than we saw this year or in 2015, Cheruiyot ran her final 3k in 8:24 without super shoes to win in a still-standing Olympic record of 14:26, more than 3 seconds faster than Obiri and 7 seconds faster than Ayana in third.
As I said, the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time is highly debatable. You know what's not debatable? The best women's 400m hurdles championship racing performance of all time. It's unquestionably Sydney's.
Can't edit this post for some reason but I just want to emphasize how absurd Chebet's 5000m finish was. The race was essentially a progression run where every 1k was faster than the last. The first 2k were more or less at 15 minute 5k pace. The last 3k was 8:24 (14 min flat 5k pace). However the reason the last 3k was so fast is mostly because of the last 1k to 1500. Chebet's last 1k of 2:33.5 is the fastest last km in the history of the event, as far as I know. And this was in the context of a 8:24 3k, which makes it even more absurd and a 57.5 last lap, indicating she could have run the last 3k and 1k even faster with a more even pace. She ran what was essentially a tactical 3k race against 1500m world record holder Kipyegon (3:49.04 shape) and defeated her easily by over a second. This performance was absolutely mind bogglingly good and probably the best 5000m RACE performance of all time by a woman.
I'm back. Before I respond to the post you asked me to address, I want to revisit this one. You did very well at describing how amazing Chebet ran in her Olympic 5,000m race. You opined that it was "probably" the best race performance of all time in that event. The key word there is "probably". It's highly debatable what is the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time. I'd love to see a thread on that topic because I don't know the answer, but I can identify at least two others that should be considered:
2015 world championships - After a first 2k that was very similar to this year's Olympic final (6:06 in 2015, 6:05 this year), Almaz Ayana ran the final 3k in 8:19 without super shoes to finish the race in a world championship record 14:26. She won that race by more than 17 seconds, absolutely destroying peak Genzebe Dibaba (that was the year Dibaba ran 3:50 and 14:15) and everyone else.
2016 Olympics - Vivian Cheruiyot outclassed Ayana, Obiri, and everyone else. After a faster opening 2k (6:00) than we saw this year or in 2015, Cheruiyot ran her final 3k in 8:24 without super shoes to win in a still-standing Olympic record of 14:26, more than 3 seconds faster than Obiri and 7 seconds faster than Ayana in third.
As I said, the best women's 5,000m championship racing performance of all time is highly debatable. You know what's not debatable? The best women's 400m hurdles championship racing performance of all time. It's unquestionably Sydney's.
You are ignoring differences in the level of competition. How many current or former world record holders or olympic/WC champions did Sydney need to beat?
In the 5000 Chebet was racing:
Kipyegon - WR holder in 1500/mile, former WR in 5000 and reigning World Champ in the 5000, 1500 GOAT
Tsegay - Current WR holder, World 5000 and 10000 champion, along with various other medals.
Hassan - Reigning Oly champ, multiple Oly and WC medals and former 10000 record holder, WA AoY, etc.
Sydney also didn't need to deal with race tactics and pushing and shoving, in a race where Kipegon was initially DQ.
I think a good case can be made that 2024 was the strongest women's 5000 field of all time.
Sydney is obviously an all-time great, but I can't give her the same credibility when she really only has one legit competitor in her event, currently.
All I'm seeing from you and others in this thread is a bias in favor of distance runners, and maybe (for some, not all) a bias against Sydney specifically.
I should have used better wording for my point re: two world records. A better way of saying it is: Breaking a world record twice is better than breaking a world record once. Remember, Sydney first broke her own world record at the US Trials, then broke it again at the Olympics.
No, the national championships point is not a joke. When evaluating AOY, we need to look at everything an athlete did that year. The fact is Chebet lost a race this year, and Sydney didn't.
My point about Sydney running qualifying times in 4 Olympic events is relevant because it shows her versatility and all-around excellence displayed throughout the year. Think about how many high-quality runners struggle to hit the Olympic standard in just one event. Sydney did it in four: the 400m hurdles, the 100m hurdles, the 200, and the 400. Your point about what Chebet might have been able to do in the 1500 is irrelevant. AOY awards aren't about what we think athletes can do; they are about what athletes actually did. As far as I know, Sydney is the only track athlete in the world this year who ran qualifying times in 4 Olympic track events.
Yes, Sydney's margin of victory in the Olympic 400m hurdles is even better than what Chebet did. That's not to say that what Chebet did in that Olympic 5,000m wasn't special. It absolutely was. I was stunned watching it. But Sydney's margin of victory was better. Athletes are not supposed to win Olympic sprint races by 1.5. It's mind-boggling. Sydney so utterly destroyed the second-best 400m hurdler of all time that she left her in tears. Like it or not, a 1.5 margin of victory is objectively better than a 1.04 margin of victory. Speaks for itself.
I don't understand your "see above" comment re: my point that Sydney running the fastest relay split in over 40 years is better than Chebet winning a tactical 10,000m race.
Kenyan Trials 5k was not an important race for Beatrice to win and she didn't try to win it. The real race between her an Kipyegon happened at the Olympics and Chebet won. This race truly does not matter at all in regards to AOY discussion. It would be like trying to diminish Kipyegon's 2023 5k victory because she came in 2nd in the prelim to Hassan. Very, very few people would agree with your line of reasoning here.
And I agree, what an athlete actually DOES is more impressive than what they COULD do. Syndey could have run in 4 events, but she didn't. Qualifications just don't matter when you're talking about AOY. Her qualification are impressive when comparing her performance this year to that of an "average" elite athlete, but not the best of the best. We have to look at what athletes actually *did".
SML's margin of victory was less impressive based on competition and context.
Her win was due to bias against distance athletes and for sprinters. It wasn't based on merit.
Here's the response you requested... Maybe Chebet didn't try to win her country's Olympic trials, but I still consider that loss to be more significant than a prelim race. And it certainly matters when being compared to an athlete who was undefeated this year.
You're missing my point about Sydney running Olympic qualifying times in four events this year. It doesn't matter if she only contested one of those individual events in Paris. When we're talking about AOY, we're not just talking about what athletes did in the Olympics. Yes, the Olympics matter most (and I am adamant that Sydney's performances in Paris were better than Chebet's), but it's not only about that. We're talking about each athlete's full body of work. Sydney demonstrating excellence in four track events this year matters because it's part of her body of work for the year. She showcased supreme event versatility and all-around excellence.
Your argument really falls apart when you say Sydney's win wasn't based on merit. That's ludicrous. If you truly respect all track & field events as you say you do, then you should at least acknowledge how amazing Sydney was this year. I'm totally fine with us disagreeing on who should have been the track AOY; I'm not fine with Sydney's excellence being dismissed and disrespected.
One thing you haven't paid attention to is Sydney's 47.71 relay split, the fastest relay split in over 40 years, just slightly behind Marita Koch's 47.70 from 1984. That's right, Sydney ran that relay leg at Koch level.
Since you and others don't seem to be swayed by Sydney's dominance in the 400m hurdles, I ask you and others reading this thread to take a moment to think about all the great women's 400m flat runners in the past four decades. Think of greats such as:
Sanya Richards-Ross
Cathy Freeman
Marie-José-Pérec
Jarmila Kratochvílová
Valerie Brisco-Hooks
Allyson Felix
Shaunae Miller-Uibo
Marileidy Paulino
Sydney ran a faster relay leg than all of them. Please: watch this video of the women's 4x400 final. Notice where Sydney gets the baton in relation to others, then look at the gargantuan lead she handed off to the third leg. That's the track AOY.
Kenyan Trials 5k was not an important race for Beatrice to win and she didn't try to win it. The real race between her an Kipyegon happened at the Olympics and Chebet won. This race truly does not matter at all in regards to AOY discussion. It would be like trying to diminish Kipyegon's 2023 5k victory because she came in 2nd in the prelim to Hassan. Very, very few people would agree with your line of reasoning here.
And I agree, what an athlete actually DOES is more impressive than what they COULD do. Syndey could have run in 4 events, but she didn't. Qualifications just don't matter when you're talking about AOY. Her qualification are impressive when comparing her performance this year to that of an "average" elite athlete, but not the best of the best. We have to look at what athletes actually *did".
SML's margin of victory was less impressive based on competition and context.
Her win was due to bias against distance athletes and for sprinters. It wasn't based on merit.
Here's the response you requested... Maybe Chebet didn't try to win her country's Olympic trials, but I still consider that loss to be more significant than a prelim race. And it certainly matters when being compared to an athlete who was undefeated this year.
You're missing my point about Sydney running Olympic qualifying times in four events this year. It doesn't matter if she only contested one of those individual events in Paris. When we're talking about AOY, we're not just talking about what athletes did in the Olympics. Yes, the Olympics matter most (and I am adamant that Sydney's performances in Paris were better than Chebet's), but it's not only about that. We're talking about each athlete's full body of work. Sydney demonstrating excellence in four track events this year matters because it's part of her body of work for the year. She showcased supreme event versatility and all-around excellence.
Your argument really falls apart when you say Sydney's win wasn't based on merit. That's ludicrous. If you truly respect all track & field events as you say you do, then you should at least acknowledge how amazing Sydney was this year. I'm totally fine with us disagreeing on who should have been the track AOY; I'm not fine with Sydney's excellence being dismissed and disrespected.
One thing you haven't paid attention to is Sydney's 47.71 relay split, the fastest relay split in over 40 years, just slightly behind Marita Koch's 47.70 from 1984. That's right, Sydney ran that relay leg at Koch level.
Since you and others don't seem to be swayed by Sydney's dominance in the 400m hurdles, I ask you and others reading this thread to take a moment to think about all the great women's 400m flat runners in the past four decades. Think of greats such as:
Sanya Richards-Ross
Cathy Freeman
Marie-José-Pérec
Jarmila Kratochvílová
Valerie Brisco-Hooks
Allyson Felix
Shaunae Miller-Uibo
Marileidy Paulino
Sydney ran a faster relay leg than all of them. Please: watch this video of the women's 4x400 final. Notice where Sydney gets the baton in relation to others, then look at the gargantuan lead she handed off to the third leg. That's the track AOY.
You are ignoring differences in the level of competition. How many current or former world record holders or olympic/WC champions did Sydney need to beat?
In the 5000 Chebet was racing:
Kipyegon - WR holder in 1500/mile, former WR in 5000 and reigning World Champ in the 5000, 1500 GOAT
Tsegay - Current WR holder, World 5000 and 10000 champion, along with various other medals.
Hassan - Reigning Oly champ, multiple Oly and WC medals and former 10000 record holder, WA AoY, etc.
Sydney also didn't need to deal with race tactics and pushing and shoving, in a race where Kipegon was initially DQ.
I think a good case can be made that 2024 was the strongest women's 5000 field of all time.
Sydney is obviously an all-time great, but I can't give her the same credibility when she really only has one legit competitor in her event, currently.
You could argue the 5,000m field in Paris was the strongest race in history based on resumes, but not based on current form at the time of the race.
Tsegay was clearly not at her best, evidenced by her 9th place finish. She hadn't raced since Pre more than two months earlier. It's likely that she encountered illness and/or injury in June or July because she didn't race at all during those two months (very different than her buildup the last three years), and the Tsegay we saw in Paris was not the same Tsegay we've seen the last few years.
Hassan was focused on the marathon this year. That wasn't 2021 track-level Hassan. Her ability to medal in the 5,000 while marathon training shows how great she is, but it also raises questions about whether that field was really as strong as we thought it was.
We know Femke was in the best form of her life this summer. And we saw what happened to her when she tried to keep up with Sydney.
Here's the response you requested... Maybe Chebet didn't try to win her country's Olympic trials, but I still consider that loss to be more significant than a prelim race. And it certainly matters when being compared to an athlete who was undefeated this year.
You're missing my point about Sydney running Olympic qualifying times in four events this year. It doesn't matter if she only contested one of those individual events in Paris. When we're talking about AOY, we're not just talking about what athletes did in the Olympics. Yes, the Olympics matter most (and I am adamant that Sydney's performances in Paris were better than Chebet's), but it's not only about that. We're talking about each athlete's full body of work. Sydney demonstrating excellence in four track events this year matters because it's part of her body of work for the year. She showcased supreme event versatility and all-around excellence.
Your argument really falls apart when you say Sydney's win wasn't based on merit. That's ludicrous. If you truly respect all track & field events as you say you do, then you should at least acknowledge how amazing Sydney was this year. I'm totally fine with us disagreeing on who should have been the track AOY; I'm not fine with Sydney's excellence being dismissed and disrespected.
One thing you haven't paid attention to is Sydney's 47.71 relay split, the fastest relay split in over 40 years, just slightly behind Marita Koch's 47.70 from 1984. That's right, Sydney ran that relay leg at Koch level.
Since you and others don't seem to be swayed by Sydney's dominance in the 400m hurdles, I ask you and others reading this thread to take a moment to think about all the great women's 400m flat runners in the past four decades. Think of greats such as:
Sanya Richards-Ross
Cathy Freeman
Marie-José-Pérec
Jarmila Kratochvílová
Valerie Brisco-Hooks
Allyson Felix
Shaunae Miller-Uibo
Marileidy Paulino
Sydney ran a faster relay leg than all of them. Please: watch this video of the women's 4x400 final. Notice where Sydney gets the baton in relation to others, then look at the gargantuan lead she handed off to the third leg. That's the track AOY.
We all know Sydney can run fast, but let's see her prove herself against stronger competition, like the women on your list did.
When she beats Miller-Ubo, Paulino or Gabby Thomas in a championship race I will gladly acknowledge her as track athlete of the year.
Sydney proved herself when she ran a faster relay leg than any of them ever has. If hurdling has such weak competition, then why don't we see more 400m runners do the hurdles?
You don't need to acknowledge Sydney as the track AOY. World Athletics already did.
You are ignoring differences in the level of competition. How many current or former world record holders or olympic/WC champions did Sydney need to beat?
In the 5000 Chebet was racing:
Kipyegon - WR holder in 1500/mile, former WR in 5000 and reigning World Champ in the 5000, 1500 GOAT
Tsegay - Current WR holder, World 5000 and 10000 champion, along with various other medals.
Hassan - Reigning Oly champ, multiple Oly and WC medals and former 10000 record holder, WA AoY, etc.
Sydney also didn't need to deal with race tactics and pushing and shoving, in a race where Kipegon was initially DQ.
I think a good case can be made that 2024 was the strongest women's 5000 field of all time.
Sydney is obviously an all-time great, but I can't give her the same credibility when she really only has one legit competitor in her event, currently.
You could argue the 5,000m field in Paris was the strongest race in history based on resumes, but not based on current form at the time of the race.
Tsegay was clearly not at her best, evidenced by her 9th place finish. She hadn't raced since Pre more than two months earlier. It's likely that she encountered illness and/or injury in June or July because she didn't race at all during those two months (very different than her buildup the last three years), and the Tsegay we saw in Paris was not the same Tsegay we've seen the last few years.
Hassan was focused on the marathon this year. That wasn't 2021 track-level Hassan. Her ability to medal in the 5,000 while marathon training shows how great she is, but it also raises questions about whether that field was really as strong as we thought it was.
We know Femke was in the best form of her life this summer. And we saw what happened to her when she tried to keep up with Sydney.
How do you know Tsegay was sick or injured? Maybe she just couldn't handle the pace after Kipyegon made her move. She did the same thing in Budapest and packed it in when she knew she could not keep pace with the top 3.
But Kipyegon had not lost a championship race since 2019. She has been the best closer in the history of women's distance. So for Chebet to outkick her in the Olympic final was significant.
You could argue the 5,000m field in Paris was the strongest race in history based on resumes, but not based on current form at the time of the race.
Tsegay was clearly not at her best, evidenced by her 9th place finish. She hadn't raced since Pre more than two months earlier. It's likely that she encountered illness and/or injury in June or July because she didn't race at all during those two months (very different than her buildup the last three years), and the Tsegay we saw in Paris was not the same Tsegay we've seen the last few years.
Hassan was focused on the marathon this year. That wasn't 2021 track-level Hassan. Her ability to medal in the 5,000 while marathon training shows how great she is, but it also raises questions about whether that field was really as strong as we thought it was.
We know Femke was in the best form of her life this summer. And we saw what happened to her when she tried to keep up with Sydney.
How do you know Tsegay was sick or injured? Maybe she just couldn't handle the pace after Kipyegon made her move. She did the same thing in Budapest and packed it in when she knew she could not keep pace with the top 3.
But Kipyegon had not lost a championship race since 2019. She has been the best closer in the history of women's distance. So for Chebet to outkick her in the Olympic final was significant.
I'm just saying it's likely Tsegay's training was compromised based on her not racing at all in June or July and how she ran in Paris. Don't you think it's strange that she hadn't raced since May? Again, that's a very different buildup than what she did the last three years.
Beating Kipyegon the way she did is what made Chebet's win special. I've already acknowledged that several times in this thread and others. But it's not quite as special as 50.37.
We all know Sydney can run fast, but let's see her prove herself against stronger competition, like the women on your list did.
When she beats Miller-Ubo, Paulino or Gabby Thomas in a championship race I will gladly acknowledge her as track athlete of the year.
Sydney proved herself when she ran a faster relay leg than any of them ever has. If hurdling has such weak competition, then why don't we see more 400m runners do the hurdles?
You don't need to acknowledge Sydney as the track AOY. World Athletics already did.
The best 400m runners don't run hurdles because they want to compete against the best athletes. That's like like saying Kipyegon or Hassan should do the steeple - although I wouldn't put it past Hassan to try.
Sydney proved herself when she ran a faster relay leg than any of them ever has. If hurdling has such weak competition, then why don't we see more 400m runners do the hurdles?
You don't need to acknowledge Sydney as the track AOY. World Athletics already did.
The best 400m runners don't run hurdles because they want to compete against the best athletes. That's like like saying Kipyegon or Hassan should do the steeple - although I wouldn't put it past Hassan to try.
If they wanted to compete against the best, then they would race Sydney in the hurdles. Sydney is the best.
The best 400m runners don't run hurdles because they want to compete against the best athletes. That's like like saying Kipyegon or Hassan should do the steeple - although I wouldn't put it past Hassan to try.
If they wanted to compete against the best, then they would race Sydney in the hurdles. Sydney is the best.
It would make no sense for a 400m athlete to learn hurdling technique just to compete against one athlete. Nothing is stopping Sydney from competing in the open 400.
I'm not arguing that Sydney's 400 WR is not remarkable. But it's still a niche event without the same level of competition so I don't think it deserves the same weight in AoY consideration. That's just my opinion and you have a different one so I will leave it at that.
Sydney McLaughlin winning Track Athlete of the Year over Beatrice Chebet is absurd. Beatrice broke the 10,000m world record this year. She also defeated all time great Faith Kipyegon, who was in WR breaking form, to win the most stacked women’s 5,000m race in history. To top it off, she secured another gold in the 10,000m. Sydney McLaughlin’s achievements this year don’t come close to Beatrice’s. At best, McLaughlin was the third most impressive female track athlete, behind both Kipyegon (who reset the 1,500m WR and won her third consecutive Olympic gold) and Chebet. McLaughlin’s selection for this award frustrating. She is the most overrated athlete of our era. It’s disappointing to see athletes like Beatrice overlooked.
Beatrice Chebet could as well have been the athlete of the year.
If they wanted to compete against the best, then they would race Sydney in the hurdles. Sydney is the best.
It would make no sense for a 400m athlete to learn hurdling technique just to compete against one athlete. Nothing is stopping Sydney from competing in the open 400.
I'm not arguing that Sydney's 400 WR is not remarkable. But it's still a niche event without the same level of competition so I don't think it deserves the same weight in AoY consideration. That's just my opinion and you have a different one so I will leave it at that.
Here's a question for you, since your comment about strength of competition keeps coming up, and you said there's better competition in the flat 400 than in the hurdles: What makes you think the 400m hurdles has weaker competition than the flat 400? The answer shouldn't be based on what hurdlers can run in the flat 400 (although Femke and other hurdlers have proven that they can run fast in the flat). The answer should be based on how fast they are *and* their skill in hurdling and managing their steps. That's what makes someone a good hurdler. When you say there is weaker competition in the hurdles, is that opinion based on expert analyses of people's hurdling techniques and steps?
The World Athletics scoring tables exist to enable us to compare different disciplines. Here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's flat 400 this year, not including Sydney's #4 1256:
1280 (Paulino)
1265 (Naser)
1264 (Pryce)
1250 (Kaczmarek)
1243 (Adeleke)
Now here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's 400m hurdles this year, not including Sydney's #1 1322 score:
1303 (Bol)
1273 (Cockrell)
1259 (Jones)
1252 (Clayton)
1243 (Little)
Based on scores, the competition is tougher in the hurdles. Not including Sydney, the top two athletes in the hurdles this year (i.e., Sydney's top challengers for gold) had higher event scores this year than the top two athletes in the flat. The average score of Sydney's top 5 competitors in the hurdles was 1266; the average of her top 5 competitors in the flat was 1260.
It would make no sense for a 400m athlete to learn hurdling technique just to compete against one athlete. Nothing is stopping Sydney from competing in the open 400.
I'm not arguing that Sydney's 400 WR is not remarkable. But it's still a niche event without the same level of competition so I don't think it deserves the same weight in AoY consideration. That's just my opinion and you have a different one so I will leave it at that.
Here's a question for you, since your comment about strength of competition keeps coming up, and you said there's better competition in the flat 400 than in the hurdles: What makes you think the 400m hurdles has weaker competition than the flat 400? The answer shouldn't be based on what hurdlers can run in the flat 400 (although Femke and other hurdlers have proven that they can run fast in the flat). The answer should be based on how fast they are *and* their skill in hurdling and managing their steps. That's what makes someone a good hurdler. When you say there is weaker competition in the hurdles, is that opinion based on expert analyses of people's hurdling techniques and steps?
The World Athletics scoring tables exist to enable us to compare different disciplines. Here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's flat 400 this year, not including Sydney's #4 1256:
1280 (Paulino)
1265 (Naser)
1264 (Pryce)
1250 (Kaczmarek)
1243 (Adeleke)
Now here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's 400m hurdles this year, not including Sydney's #1 1322 score:
1303 (Bol)
1273 (Cockrell)
1259 (Jones)
1252 (Clayton)
1243 (Little)
Based on scores, the competition is tougher in the hurdles. Not including Sydney, the top two athletes in the hurdles this year (i.e., Sydney's top challengers for gold) had higher event scores this year than the top two athletes in the flat. The average score of Sydney's top 5 competitors in the hurdles was 1266; the average of her top 5 competitors in the flat was 1260.
My assertion that the hurdles are less competitive is based on the fact that a lot fewer people really even try the event and put effort into developing the technique. The talent funnel for open running events is just a lot wider.
Go to any HS team and the fastest guy won't be running hurdles. We will never know if he could be a great hurdler because because he will only ever compete in the open sprints and that's where the coach wants him.
Here's a question for you, since your comment about strength of competition keeps coming up, and you said there's better competition in the flat 400 than in the hurdles: What makes you think the 400m hurdles has weaker competition than the flat 400? The answer shouldn't be based on what hurdlers can run in the flat 400 (although Femke and other hurdlers have proven that they can run fast in the flat). The answer should be based on how fast they are *and* their skill in hurdling and managing their steps. That's what makes someone a good hurdler. When you say there is weaker competition in the hurdles, is that opinion based on expert analyses of people's hurdling techniques and steps?
The World Athletics scoring tables exist to enable us to compare different disciplines. Here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's flat 400 this year, not including Sydney's #4 1256:
1280 (Paulino)
1265 (Naser)
1264 (Pryce)
1250 (Kaczmarek)
1243 (Adeleke)
Now here are the top five event scores by athlete in the women's 400m hurdles this year, not including Sydney's #1 1322 score:
1303 (Bol)
1273 (Cockrell)
1259 (Jones)
1252 (Clayton)
1243 (Little)
Based on scores, the competition is tougher in the hurdles. Not including Sydney, the top two athletes in the hurdles this year (i.e., Sydney's top challengers for gold) had higher event scores this year than the top two athletes in the flat. The average score of Sydney's top 5 competitors in the hurdles was 1266; the average of her top 5 competitors in the flat was 1260.
My assertion that the hurdles are less competitive is based on the fact that a lot fewer people really even try the event and put effort into developing the technique. The talent funnel for open running events is just a lot wider.
Go to any HS team and the fastest guy won't be running hurdles. We will never know if he could be a great hurdler because because he will only ever compete in the open sprints and that's where the coach wants him.
Thanks for answering my question. So your assertion about Sydney's quality of competition isn't based on any analysis of her actual competitors. Do you not see how that's faulty logic?