For those who continue to not understand: threshold is NOT A PACE. It is an effort zone. At sea level on a track, in a down week of training, a 13:30 guy might be running an AM 3x2mile session at 4:55 pace reading 2.5mmol/l. On tired legs and at altitude on the roads, the same guy might be reading 3.0mmol/l at 5:15 pace. If you are training correctly, you are going by your body's feedback, not by a pace. For what it's worth, Joey's training partner is Drew Hunter, who posts all his training on Strava. Almost none of his sessions last year were at paces you would associate with a runner of his capability, and he had a career year and was 4th in the US over 10k.
For those who continue to not understand: threshold is NOT A PACE. It is an effort zone. At sea level on a track, in a down week of training, a 13:30 guy might be running an AM 3x2mile session at 4:55 pace reading 2.5mmol/l. On tired legs and at altitude on the roads, the same guy might be reading 3.0mmol/l at 5:15 pace. If you are training correctly, you are going by your body's feedback, not by a pace. For what it's worth, Joey's training partner is Drew Hunter, who posts all his training on Strava. Almost none of his sessions last year were at paces you would associate with a runner of his capability, and he had a career year and was 4th in the US over 10k.
4:55 pace for a 13:30 guy, is really, really slow. I don’t see any benefit from such a leisurely workout.
For those who continue to not understand: threshold is NOT A PACE. It is an effort zone. At sea level on a track, in a down week of training, a 13:30 guy might be running an AM 3x2mile session at 4:55 pace reading 2.5mmol/l. On tired legs and at altitude on the roads, the same guy might be reading 3.0mmol/l at 5:15 pace. If you are training correctly, you are going by your body's feedback, not by a pace. For what it's worth, Joey's training partner is Drew Hunter, who posts all his training on Strava. Almost none of his sessions last year were at paces you would associate with a runner of his capability, and he had a career year and was 4th in the US over 10k.
4:55 pace for a 13:30 guy, is really, really slow. I don’t see any benefit from such a leisurely workout.
you know what's slower? 2 x 3 miles at 5:20 per mile pace
12 miles of running 40-60 seconds faster than his easy pace doesn't do anything for him aerobically?
Not when this workout replaces an 8-10 x mile at 5 minute pace
That might be a better workout. It might be a worse workout if he isn't recovered for the next workout. It might be a workout that would be better at a different time in his training cycle.
Bunch of workout warriors in here. Bro is at altitude doing most of the workouts on dirt roads. If he is running at his true threshold and stacking volume at that effort while being able to recover to do it consistently, then he is doing the system as its designed.
Some people have talent ceilings - not everyone can run sub 13:30. Listen to Hobbs Kessler talk about his experience with threshold work on the Sweat Elite podcast - he mentions how variable it can be depending on how he is feeling. Meaning, he doesn't run to a pace (a la, I am a xx:xx guy so I should be running x:xx pace) but to an effort as the body only knows effort over time, not pace in min/mile. One of the gnarly side effects of strava is people trying to PR workouts, no dude race and PR in races. Training is training and racing is racing.
Joey Berriatua is a Tinman Elite runner with prs of: mile, 3:57; 3km, 7:47; 5km 13:38.
This was his latest double threshold workout
AM 3 x 2 mile at 5:18 pace
PM 24 x 400 at 73 second pace
Yes, this was at altitude but...what is this helping exactly? So he got in 12 miles of work in one day...six of which were intervals at much slower than his marathon pace.
I just really don't see how this helps with aerobic development or helping him prepare for training that will lower his 5k and 10k prs.
Not sure what you're questioning about double threshold workouts; volume, pacing or rationale? Setting pacing aside, the rationale is to stack volume into one day so that you can get full recovery over the next two days. Akin to doing a workout after a race.
In the old days, before double thresholds were invented, we'd do something like a 10 mile tempo on Monday, workouts on Tuesday/Friday and cutdown long runs on Saturday. Mostly because we ran faster than we should have 4 days a week there was never enough time to recover during the weekly training block. It's why some folks like the 10 day cycle, especially for HSers/collegiate underclassmen.
Double thresholds are a great way to get volume in and allowing for adequate recovery mid week. As to pacing, it's easy for runners to want to run double Ts too hard and it's a recipe for disaster. Always better to err on the slower side.
To be fair, I do think most of the jump from people trying the double T method is just a shift to an aerobic emphasis rather than Vo2 and speed sessions all the time.
I am not convinced the result would be drastically different if someone did any of the following and was able to stay healthy:
1) 5x2k in the AM and 10x1k in the PM Two Days per week
2) 4x2mi one day per week. and 8x1mi one day per week
3) a 10mi Tempo one day per week. and a hard 4mi tempo once per week.
It's probably better to err on the side of too slow than too fast if you're training like this, but I'm still kinda stunned how slow those paces are. My 5k PR is nearly two minutes slower than his, and I could do both of those workouts comfortably (maybe not at altitude on the same day but still).
It's probably better to err on the side of too slow than too fast if you're training like this, but I'm still kinda stunned how slow those paces are. My 5k PR is nearly two minutes slower than his, and I could do both of those workouts comfortably (maybe not at altitude on the same day but still).
Doing the workout vs showing up on race day ready to rock?
Ever wonder why some athletes/teams crumble at the end of the season and others peak when it counts?
It's probably better to err on the side of too slow than too fast if you're training like this, but I'm still kinda stunned how slow those paces are. My 5k PR is nearly two minutes slower than his, and I could do both of those workouts comfortably (maybe not at altitude on the same day but still).
Doing the workout vs showing up on race day ready to rock?
Ever wonder why some athletes/teams crumble at the end of the season and others peak when it counts?
Yeah I'm not criticizing his training without knowing the full picture, just saying that an sub-elite doing intervals this slow is striking and worthy of being commented on, even if I disagree with OPs contention that double threshold is useless.
To be fair, I do think most of the jump from people trying the double T method is just a shift to an aerobic emphasis rather than Vo2 and speed sessions all the time.
I am not convinced the result would be drastically different if someone did any of the following and was able to stay healthy:
1) 5x2k in the AM and 10x1k in the PM Two Days per week
2) 4x2mi one day per week. and 8x1mi one day per week
3) a 10mi Tempo one day per week. and a hard 4mi tempo once per week.
I would be shocked if the person doing 12 mi/day isn’t faster than the 8 or 7 group. Volume is just that important in building aerobic capacity. I also would be surprised if that extra stress caused more injuries. Now it is up to you if running like 13:00 versus 13:10 is drastic or not.
realistically if you can do 2 single thresholds week ( say 6x1 mi and 25x400), you don’t need double. Seems like a lot of people skip that step.