Double threshold is the polyamory of distance training:
there’s something about their training that isn’t working, and they convicne themselves that “normal training” is the problem and double threshold is the answer. Then when double threshold doesn’t work, they convince themselves that the training couldn’t possibly be the problem and that they have to stay with it.
Yes, double threshold actually works. It might not be the most effective training you can do on any given day or during any given period, or it might.
Some tend to over rely on it or do it at inopportune times and don't realize their potential, but that's the same for the dudes replacing runs with arc trainer sessions because one olympian did that for a brief period.
If you are trying to design your own training, it might be better to refer to something like a Daniels plan than cobble together a system of workouts pros succeeded with.
It CAN work. It can also not work. Are you applying the method correctly? Are you recovering outside of training? Are you fueling enough to sustain the training? Are your easy days easy enough to absorb the training? Do you have a stressful life outside of training? Is your volume high enough to support this training? Do you see how easy it can be to screw this up?
I dropped 1+ minute from my 8k with double T. To the low 23s
Would guys like Salazar and Virgin have improved their 10000m times by a minute had they done double threshold workouts? My estimate is that D.T. workouts make no difference at all.
I dropped 1+ minute from my 8k with double T. To the low 23s
Would guys like Salazar and Virgin have improved their 10000m times by a minute had they done double threshold workouts? My estimate is that D.T. workouts make no difference at all.
Maybe I'm old school, but for most runners (especially non-elites) I would not recommend "double threshold."
I think with supershoes/super spikes perhaps the training has evolved to allow more "double threshold" days more often...but I think it is also something for elites that might be on PEDs. Like "double threshold" would be a really good idea if one was on PEDs for sure.
For most people, it's a matter of getting up consistent higher mileage (higher volume) so they can simply just do a longer (single) Threshold or Tempo session in one go. Instead of 8 x 1km they can do 10 x 1km or instead of 4 x 1-mile they do 6 x 1-mile etc.
Maybe someone can fill me on the "the science" of why Double Threshold is "better" exactly? (or why you think so)?.......but basically I just see it right now along the lines of "crash training" or going for a "big super-compensation" (i.e. you train really hard sometimes, and you adapt to the newfound stress and you get better!).
The other concept/shift would be the idea of doing a higher % of your weekly volume at a "moderate intensity level" of 80-90% Max HR (Threshold to Tempo) instead of trying to hammer out more Vo2max or super high intensity training over 95%. So the "benefits" come more from dialing back from "Zone 5" or spiking 95% HR/effort (and over 4mmol values) for the sake of doing more volume of workouts between LT1-LT2 (Threshold to Tempo, lower lactate levels but higher relative volume). Training more "like a Marathoner" instead of a "1500m runner"....even if your target events are 1500m-10km.
But fitness and training gains usually come from a sequence of workouts over time ( a blend of Tempos, Long Runs, Strides, Vo2max, Weekly volume etc.) so generally no "single workout type" can be definitively credited for all the fitness gains. One single workout day (if it is too hard) can certainly break or injury you though....
Would guys like Salazar and Virgin have improved their 10000m times by a minute had they done double threshold workouts? My estimate is that D.T. workouts make no difference at all.
Maybe I'm old school, but for most runners (especially non-elites) I would not recommend "double threshold."
I think with supershoes/super spikes perhaps the training has evolved to allow more "double threshold" days more often...but I think it is also something for elites that might be on PEDs. Like "double threshold" would be a really good idea if one was on PEDs for sure.
For most people, it's a matter of getting up consistent higher mileage (higher volume) so they can simply just do a longer (single) Threshold or Tempo session in one go. Instead of 8 x 1km they can do 10 x 1km or instead of 4 x 1-mile they do 6 x 1-mile etc.
Maybe someone can fill me on the "the science" of why Double Threshold is "better" exactly? (or why you think so)?.......but basically I just see it right now along the lines of "crash training" or going for a "big super-compensation" (i.e. you train really hard sometimes, and you adapt to the newfound stress and you get better!).
The other concept/shift would be the idea of doing a higher % of your weekly volume at a "moderate intensity level" of 80-90% Max HR (Threshold to Tempo) instead of trying to hammer out more Vo2max or super high intensity training over 95%. So the "benefits" come more from dialing back from "Zone 5" or spiking 95% HR/effort (and over 4mmol values) for the sake of doing more volume of workouts between LT1-LT2 (Threshold to Tempo, lower lactate levels but higher relative volume). Training more "like a Marathoner" instead of a "1500m runner"....even if your target events are 1500m-10km.
But fitness and training gains usually come from a sequence of workouts over time ( a blend of Tempos, Long Runs, Strides, Vo2max, Weekly volume etc.) so generally no "single workout type" can be definitively credited for all the fitness gains. One single workout day (if it is too hard) can certainly break or injury you though....
Agreed. And a lot of these pros seem to be doing double threshold and awfully slow paces relative to their ability…and then are SHOCKED (SHOCKED I tell you) when their performances start to slow…umm maybe it’s because your workouts have slowed down?
“But but my mmols and lactate levels are real good!!!”
Double threshold is the polyamory of distance training:
there’s something about their training that isn’t working, and they convicne themselves that “normal training” is the problem and double threshold is the answer. Then when double threshold doesn’t work, they convince themselves that the training couldn’t possibly be the problem and that they have to stay with it.
This has been discussed many times here already and elsewhere. Double threshold is not a magic bullet, it is just one approach to maximizing high volume of controlled intensity.
Double threshold is the polyamory of distance training:
there’s something about their training that isn’t working, and they convicne themselves that “normal training” is the problem and double threshold is the answer. Then when double threshold doesn’t work, they convince themselves that the training couldn’t possibly be the problem and that they have to stay with it.
This has been discussed many times here already and elsewhere. Double threshold is not a magic bullet, it is just one approach to maximizing high volume of controlled intensity.
Maybe I'm old school, but for most runners (especially non-elites) I would not recommend "double threshold."
I think with supershoes/super spikes perhaps the training has evolved to allow more "double threshold" days more often...but I think it is also something for elites that might be on PEDs. Like "double threshold" would be a really good idea if one was on PEDs for sure.
For most people, it's a matter of getting up consistent higher mileage (higher volume) so they can simply just do a longer (single) Threshold or Tempo session in one go. Instead of 8 x 1km they can do 10 x 1km or instead of 4 x 1-mile they do 6 x 1-mile etc.
Maybe someone can fill me on the "the science" of why Double Threshold is "better" exactly? (or why you think so)?.......but basically I just see it right now along the lines of "crash training" or going for a "big super-compensation" (i.e. you train really hard sometimes, and you adapt to the newfound stress and you get better!).
The other concept/shift would be the idea of doing a higher % of your weekly volume at a "moderate intensity level" of 80-90% Max HR (Threshold to Tempo) instead of trying to hammer out more Vo2max or super high intensity training over 95%. So the "benefits" come more from dialing back from "Zone 5" or spiking 95% HR/effort (and over 4mmol values) for the sake of doing more volume of workouts between LT1-LT2 (Threshold to Tempo, lower lactate levels but higher relative volume). Training more "like a Marathoner" instead of a "1500m runner"....even if your target events are 1500m-10km.
But fitness and training gains usually come from a sequence of workouts over time ( a blend of Tempos, Long Runs, Strides, Vo2max, Weekly volume etc.) so generally no "single workout type" can be definitively credited for all the fitness gains. One single workout day (if it is too hard) can certainly break or injury you though....
Agreed. And a lot of these pros seem to be doing double threshold and awfully slow paces relative to their ability…and then are SHOCKED (SHOCKED I tell you) when their performances start to slow…umm maybe it’s because your workouts have slowed down?
“But but my mmols and lactate levels are real good!!!”
yeah but your workouts have slowed down
lol, so true. A runner who could run a marathon pace workout with 12 miles of work will instead break that workout into two with an AM and PM workout, call it "double threshold," and then be SHOCKED when he doesn't receive magical results
Maybe I'm old school, but for most runners (especially non-elites) I would not recommend "double threshold."
I think with supershoes/super spikes perhaps the training has evolved to allow more "double threshold" days more often...but I think it is also something for elites that might be on PEDs. Like "double threshold" would be a really good idea if one was on PEDs for sure.
For most people, it's a matter of getting up consistent higher mileage (higher volume) so they can simply just do a longer (single) Threshold or Tempo session in one go. Instead of 8 x 1km they can do 10 x 1km or instead of 4 x 1-mile they do 6 x 1-mile etc.
Maybe someone can fill me on the "the science" of why Double Threshold is "better" exactly? (or why you think so)?.......but basically I just see it right now along the lines of "crash training" or going for a "big super-compensation" (i.e. you train really hard sometimes, and you adapt to the newfound stress and you get better!).
The other concept/shift would be the idea of doing a higher % of your weekly volume at a "moderate intensity level" of 80-90% Max HR (Threshold to Tempo) instead of trying to hammer out more Vo2max or super high intensity training over 95%. So the "benefits" come more from dialing back from "Zone 5" or spiking 95% HR/effort (and over 4mmol values) for the sake of doing more volume of workouts between LT1-LT2 (Threshold to Tempo, lower lactate levels but higher relative volume). Training more "like a Marathoner" instead of a "1500m runner"....even if your target events are 1500m-10km.
But fitness and training gains usually come from a sequence of workouts over time ( a blend of Tempos, Long Runs, Strides, Vo2max, Weekly volume etc.) so generally no "single workout type" can be definitively credited for all the fitness gains. One single workout day (if it is too hard) can certainly break or injury you though....
Agreed. And a lot of these pros seem to be doing double threshold and awfully slow paces relative to their ability…and then are SHOCKED (SHOCKED I tell you) when their performances start to slow…umm maybe it’s because your workouts have slowed down?
“But but my mmols and lactate levels are real good!!!”
yeah but your workouts have slowed down
lol
"But my MMOLs! But my lactate!"
Meanwhile the half-marathon WR was just broken. Does he do double threshold? no
Agreed. And a lot of these pros seem to be doing double threshold and awfully slow paces relative to their ability…and then are SHOCKED (SHOCKED I tell you) when their performances start to slow…umm maybe it’s because your workouts have slowed down?
“But but my mmols and lactate levels are real good!!!”
yeah but your workouts have slowed down
lol, so true. A runner who could run a marathon pace workout with 12 miles of work will instead break that workout into two with an AM and PM workout, call it "double threshold," and then be SHOCKED when he doesn't receive magical results
Well yes, but as others have mentioned on here (and I know "Double Threshold" has been discussed a lot already here over the months and years) is what our definition and implementation of it actually is:
I first read Bakken's threads on lactate meters about 20 years ago as a high school student athlete lurking on here. I read Canova's book in college. I grew up with Jack Daniels "Threshold Training" and 20-min Tempo Runs and VDOT tables when I read his first edition "Running Formula" by the age of 16.
But if we actually look at the "Norwegian model" or stuff from Bakken's blog we have to remember that a "Double Threshold day" actually was designed more like this:
AM: 5 x 6min (or 2km) Threshold session at 2-3mmol lactate on a short rest.
PM: 20x (45-sec to 60 sec) or 400m to 600m reps at 3-4mmol lactate values on a short rest.
I'm starting to now think that the whole "Double Threshold" is better for runners in the 1500m-10km race range rather than Marathoners (who already do a lot of aerobic development training). But then again Bakken was also pretty high volume....doing 180km a week (112 miles per week)...so there's that:
mariusbakken.com
The Norwegian model of lactate threshold training and lactate controlled approach to training. A look at some of the concepts, history, and keys to improvement. I wrote most of the articles found…
lol, so true. A runner who could run a marathon pace workout with 12 miles of work will instead break that workout into two with an AM and PM workout, call it "double threshold," and then be SHOCKED when he doesn't receive magical results
Well yes, but as others have mentioned on here (and I know "Double Threshold" has been discussed a lot already here over the months and years) is what our definition and implementation of it actually is:
I first read Bakken's threads on lactate meters about 20 years ago as a high school student athlete lurking on here. I read Canova's book in college. I grew up with Jack Daniels "Threshold Training" and 20-min Tempo Runs and VDOT tables when I read his first edition "Running Formula" by the age of 16.
But if we actually look at the "Norwegian model" or stuff from Bakken's blog we have to remember that a "Double Threshold day" actually was designed more like this:
AM: 5 x 6min (or 2km) Threshold session at 2-3mmol lactate on a short rest.
PM: 20x (45-sec to 60 sec) or 400m to 600m reps at 3-4mmol lactate values on a short rest.
I'm starting to now think that the whole "Double Threshold" is better for runners in the 1500m-10km race range rather than Marathoners (who already do a lot of aerobic development training). But then again Bakken was also pretty high volume....doing 180km a week (112 miles per week)...so there's that:
Well yes, but as others have mentioned on here (and I know "Double Threshold" has been discussed a lot already here over the months and years) is what our definition and implementation of it actually is:
I first read Bakken's threads on lactate meters about 20 years ago as a high school student athlete lurking on here. I read Canova's book in college. I grew up with Jack Daniels "Threshold Training" and 20-min Tempo Runs and VDOT tables when I read his first edition "Running Formula" by the age of 16.
But if we actually look at the "Norwegian model" or stuff from Bakken's blog we have to remember that a "Double Threshold day" actually was designed more like this:
AM: 5 x 6min (or 2km) Threshold session at 2-3mmol lactate on a short rest.
PM: 20x (45-sec to 60 sec) or 400m to 600m reps at 3-4mmol lactate values on a short rest.
I'm starting to now think that the whole "Double Threshold" is better for runners in the 1500m-10km race range rather than Marathoners (who already do a lot of aerobic development training). But then again Bakken was also pretty high volume....doing 180km a week (112 miles per week)...so there's that:
Agreed. And a lot of these pros seem to be doing double threshold and awfully slow paces relative to their ability…and then are SHOCKED (SHOCKED I tell you) when their performances start to slow…umm maybe it’s because your workouts have slowed down?
“But but my mmols and lactate levels are real good!!!”
yeah but your workouts have slowed down
lol
"But my MMOLs! But my lactate!"
Meanwhile the half-marathon WR was just broken. Does he do double threshold? no
The 3000m WR was just broken. Does he do double threshold? Yes
lol, so true. A runner who could run a marathon pace workout with 12 miles of work will instead break that workout into two with an AM and PM workout, call it "double threshold," and then be SHOCKED when he doesn't receive magical results
Well yes, but as others have mentioned on here (and I know "Double Threshold" has been discussed a lot already here over the months and years) is what our definition and implementation of it actually is:
I first read Bakken's threads on lactate meters about 20 years ago as a high school student athlete lurking on here. I read Canova's book in college. I grew up with Jack Daniels "Threshold Training" and 20-min Tempo Runs and VDOT tables when I read his first edition "Running Formula" by the age of 16.
But if we actually look at the "Norwegian model" or stuff from Bakken's blog we have to remember that a "Double Threshold day" actually was designed more like this:
AM: 5 x 6min (or 2km) Threshold session at 2-3mmol lactate on a short rest.
PM: 20x (45-sec to 60 sec) or 400m to 600m reps at 3-4mmol lactate values on a short rest.
I'm starting to now think that the whole "Double Threshold" is better for runners in the 1500m-10km race range rather than Marathoners (who already do a lot of aerobic development training). But then again Bakken was also pretty high volume....doing 180km a week (112 miles per week)...so there's that:
Double threshold maximizes the amount of quality work you can do in a sustainable way, but it is just base training. You have to tweak your training before a big race where you want to run as fast as possible. Jakob didn't just run 3:26 doing double threshold year round. He does tons of race pace sessions at much higher lactate values in the summer. You also have to do the same for longer races. It's not rocket science.
