Joey Berriatua is a Tinman Elite runner with prs of: mile, 3:57; 3km, 7:47; 5km 13:38.
This was his latest double threshold workout
AM 3 x 2 mile at 5:18 pace
PM 24 x 400 at 73 second pace
Yes, this was at altitude but...what is this helping exactly? So he got in 12 miles of work in one day...six of which were intervals at much slower than his marathon pace.
I just really don't see how this helps with aerobic development or helping him prepare for training that will lower his 5k and 10k prs.
Joey Berriatua is a Tinman Elite runner with prs of: mile, 3:57; 3km, 7:47; 5km 13:38.
This was his latest double threshold workout
AM 3 x 2 mile at 5:18 pace
PM 24 x 400 at 73 second pace
Yes, this was at altitude but...what is this helping exactly? So he got in 12 miles of work in one day...six of which were intervals at much slower than his marathon pace.
I just really don't see how this helps with aerobic development or helping him prepare for training that will lower his 5k and 10k prs.
So the biggest problem with double threshold training is you not understanding it?
Joey Berriatua is a Tinman Elite runner with prs of: mile, 3:57; 3km, 7:47; 5km 13:38.
This was his latest double threshold workout
AM 3 x 2 mile at 5:18 pace
PM 24 x 400 at 73 second pace
Yes, this was at altitude but...what is this helping exactly? So he got in 12 miles of work in one day...six of which were intervals at much slower than his marathon pace.
I just really don't see how this helps with aerobic development or helping him prepare for training that will lower his 5k and 10k prs.
So the biggest problem with double threshold training is you not understanding it?
the problem is that it rarely works, then when you call these guys on it they just say, oh it takes time etc
So the biggest problem with double threshold training is you not understanding it?
the problem is that it rarely works, then when you call these guys on it they just say, oh it takes time etc
it's a cult
To be fair, it DOES take time and a lot of people are seeing success from it. Is it a magic bullet? Absolutely not. Does it work for everybody? No. But to say that it “rarely works” is a stretch. If done correctly, in an athlete that has the capacity for it, it works.
the problem is that it rarely works, then when you call these guys on it they just say, oh it takes time etc
it's a cult
To be fair, it DOES take time and a lot of people are seeing success from it. Is it a magic bullet? Absolutely not. Does it work for everybody? No. But to say that it “rarely works” is a stretch. If done correctly, in an athlete that has the capacity for it, it works.
for most athletes, it doesn't, and they get slower and slower while saying publicly, "just you wait!"
He isn't doing it well. His reps are far too slow so he won't be getting much stimulus from it at all. Double threshold effort/pace should be somewhere ranging from Marathon to 10k pace, depending on the duration of the work. 5:18 is far too slow for him, and 73 second 400m reps are extremely pedestrian also. If he's in 13:38 shape then the 2 mile reps should be done around 5:05-5:00 pace and the 400m reps should be close to 10k pace (4:35 pace). Mile reps should be around 4:55 and k reps should be about 4:45 pace or 2:57 per km. Assuming this is all off of 1 minute recovery.
He isn't doing it well. His reps are far too slow so he won't be getting much stimulus from it at all. Double threshold effort/pace should be somewhere ranging from Marathon to 10k pace, depending on the duration of the work. 5:18 is far too slow for him, and 73 second 400m reps are extremely pedestrian also. If he's in 13:38 shape then the 2 mile reps should be done around 5:05-5:00 pace and the 400m reps should be close to 10k pace (4:35 pace). Mile reps should be around 4:55 and k reps should be about 4:45 pace or 2:57 per km. Assuming this is all off of 1 minute recovery.
Joey Berriatua is a Tinman Elite runner with prs of: mile, 3:57; 3km, 7:47; 5km 13:38.
This was his latest double threshold workout
AM 3 x 2 mile at 5:18 pace
PM 24 x 400 at 73 second pace
Yes, this was at altitude but...what is this helping exactly? So he got in 12 miles of work in one day...six of which were intervals at much slower than his marathon pace.
I just really don't see how this helps with aerobic development or helping him prepare for training that will lower his 5k and 10k prs.
The answer is that Joey either has an incredibly weak lactate threshold, or he's just going too slow. I did a lot of double threshold leading up to a PB of 3:47, and 20x400 was one of my staples (with about 45 second rest, starting at 60 in the fall and getting all the way down to 30 for some sessions). I think my first couple sessions might've been at around 73 seconds, but I pretty quickly got down into the 70-second range and stayed there, with a number of sessions hitting 68-69 while at threshold. Joey is significantly fitter aerobically, and I find it hard to believe he was pushing up to LT2 at 4:54 mile pace.
The reason why intervals, and in particular 400-1000m intervals, are so important for double T to work is that you need to get your heart rate up close to max in order to maximize aerobic gains. In a system where you are not regularly doing VO2 intervals (likely never doing them), you really need to get in those shorter thresholds to push that heart rate. It's possible at altitude that his heart rate is getting that high, but I kind of doubt it.
He isn't doing it well. His reps are far too slow so he won't be getting much stimulus from it at all. Double threshold effort/pace should be somewhere ranging from Marathon to 10k pace, depending on the duration of the work. 5:18 is far too slow for him, and 73 second 400m reps are extremely pedestrian also. If he's in 13:38 shape then the 2 mile reps should be done around 5:05-5:00 pace and the 400m reps should be close to 10k pace (4:35 pace). Mile reps should be around 4:55 and k reps should be about 4:45 pace or 2:57 per km. Assuming this is all off of 1 minute recovery.
He isn't doing it well. His reps are far too slow so he won't be getting much stimulus from it at all. Double threshold effort/pace should be somewhere ranging from Marathon to 10k pace, depending on the duration of the work. 5:18 is far too slow for him, and 73 second 400m reps are extremely pedestrian also. If he's in 13:38 shape then the 2 mile reps should be done around 5:05-5:00 pace and the 400m reps should be close to 10k pace (4:35 pace). Mile reps should be around 4:55 and k reps should be about 4:45 pace or 2:57 per km. Assuming this is all off of 1 minute recovery.
What are you basing these paces on?
Which is the correct question. If you aren't using a lactate meter (this isn't HS), then the picture is incomplete. Pace follows the lactate, not the other way around. Lactate determines the effort/pace, not some pace structure from Daniels or wherever.
the problem is that it rarely works, then when you call these guys on it they just say, oh it takes time etc
it's a cult
To be fair, it DOES take time and a lot of people are seeing success from it. Is it a magic bullet? Absolutely not. Does it work for everybody? No. But to say that it “rarely works” is a stretch. If done correctly, in an athlete that has the capacity for it, it works.
There’s no parallel universe where someone runs once a day intervals workouts to compare double workouts. Someone who ran double threshold and improved, might have improved the same amount with traditional training. There have been many great runners that never ran them.
Which is the correct question. If you aren't using a lactate meter (this isn't HS), then the picture is incomplete. Pace follows the lactate, not the other way around. Lactate determines the effort/pace, not some pace structure from Daniels or wherever.
right but you have to do it a lot of times and get an average of all the readings to get a real idea of what pace you should be running
He isn't doing it well. His reps are far too slow so he won't be getting much stimulus from it at all. Double threshold effort/pace should be somewhere ranging from Marathon to 10k pace, depending on the duration of the work. 5:18 is far too slow for him, and 73 second 400m reps are extremely pedestrian also. If he's in 13:38 shape then the 2 mile reps should be done around 5:05-5:00 pace and the 400m reps should be close to 10k pace (4:35 pace). Mile reps should be around 4:55 and k reps should be about 4:45 pace or 2:57 per km. Assuming this is all off of 1 minute recovery.
What are you basing these paces on?
Basing them off of his 5k PB and 2 years of using the double threshold method. He’s a bit faster than me but I have ran under 14, so the paces are fairly similar. The paces suggested are a bit faster than what I use but conservative enough that they won’t put him in any sort of hole.
Joey Berriatua is a Tinman Elite runner with prs of: mile, 3:57; 3km, 7:47; 5km 13:38.
This was his latest double threshold workout
AM 3 x 2 mile at 5:18 pace
PM 24 x 400 at 73 second pace
Yes, this was at altitude but...what is this helping exactly? So he got in 12 miles of work in one day...six of which were intervals at much slower than his marathon pace.
I just really don't see how this helps with aerobic development or helping him prepare for training that will lower his 5k and 10k prs.
why are you calling out a middling pro as a supposed example for double threshold being problematic as a whole?
Joey Berriatua is a Tinman Elite runner with prs of: mile, 3:57; 3km, 7:47; 5km 13:38.
This was his latest double threshold workout
AM 3 x 2 mile at 5:18 pace
PM 24 x 400 at 73 second pace
Yes, this was at altitude but...what is this helping exactly? So he got in 12 miles of work in one day...six of which were intervals at much slower than his marathon pace.
I just really don't see how this helps with aerobic development or helping him prepare for training that will lower his 5k and 10k prs.
why are you calling out a middling pro as a supposed example for double threshold being problematic as a whole?
because he'd be better if he wasn't doing training like this
He isn't doing it well. His reps are far too slow so he won't be getting much stimulus from it at all. Double threshold effort/pace should be somewhere ranging from Marathon to 10k pace, depending on the duration of the work. 5:18 is far too slow for him, and 73 second 400m reps are extremely pedestrian also. If he's in 13:38 shape then the 2 mile reps should be done around 5:05-5:00 pace and the 400m reps should be close to 10k pace (4:35 pace). Mile reps should be around 4:55 and k reps should be about 4:45 pace or 2:57 per km. Assuming this is all off of 1 minute recovery.
What are you basing these paces on?
In the absence of a lactate meter (which will be most runners), I like Rubio's adaptation of Horwill's 5 paces and "4 second rule". Swap out 4-sec for 3s-5s depending on the athlete's aerobic foundation. For the athlete in question:
Note that these are training paces more than race predictions. Also, the effort should feel right; don't just be a slave to the metronome. That said, quarters should target about 10000m, 1000s about Threshold, 2000s about Marathon. These numbers match very closely with "too slow"'s post, with my own experience training double threshold, and my experience coaching high school athletes (not double threshold).
On the other hand, I have ZERO experience with altitude training and can't say how that factor would impact paces.