"coed division" as solution to "trans athletes as a wedge"

What gender are you? Are you a man, or a woman? Because news flash, whichever you just chose is what YOU identify as. Which according to you, it "is weak, nobody really cares about some fantasy you might have." That's all it is. A fantasy. As you said, "It's all about real life". In in real life, gender is not boy or girl. Gender is so much more, and while you may believe that anything else is a fantasy, YOU are the one living in a fantasy.

Maybe not Dallas Cowboys. But NFL already has a trans cheerleader.

https://www.nfl.com/news/first-openly-transgender-nfl-cheerleader-justine-lindsay-a-face-of-the-possible

And what's wrong with this? Does she have any unfair advantage in cheerleading?

Joey who became Zoey can play on boys team. No extra league nonsense that nobody would care about anyway and would cost a lot of money.

Really. You tell me to kill myself. This is just another example of a transphobic and homophobic person resorting to violence because they cannot argue against a point proving that the targeted attacks and transphobia is wrong.

It's honestly kind of funny. People are always saying people like me are a threat to girls sports (and lets not even talk about people not caring about transgender boys competing on boys divisions. That's honestly just sexism even before the transphobia). And yet the only people I ever see being violent or rude are the homophobic and transphobic people. So who do we need to save sports from? The kind, polite people who are just trying to go about their daily lives, or the disrespectful, violent people who constantly bully the voiceless.

So wrong it's comical. When you were born you were one of two things a boy or a girl that will never ever ever ever change. You can identify as anything ya want but you will never ever change what you actually are,

Rookies sheesh~~~~~~~~~

Conservatives are the true victims of oppression. X before Elon was a liberal cesspool of woke censorship,

what part of "coed" is confusing? have you never played coed softball or soccer? or done a unisex event like a fun run? we agree up front gender doesn't matter. anyone can sign up for the division. first to finish, or team with the most goals, wins.

if we are nervous about mixing genders in contact aspects, we just use tighter contact rules. coed soccer disallowed slide tackles. anything else the ref has a whistle and cards like usual.

track has contact rules, and false starts and such. you just enforce the rules of track.

heck, we already do mixed 1/2 1/2 relays already. what are you scared of?

no one "has" to pick the division, and an elite gay athlete might prefer to be in their gender class instead. maybe with college ambitions or seeking mainstream success.

but i could also see where maybe some gay students might see a queer-friendly division that allows trans athletes, as more of a home. particularly at schools where they get harassed. and particularly in a time or distance sport like track, i would think an ambitious but bullied gay athlete could still offer around their "coed" division times just the same, if good enough.

or there might be a coed division in college, too.

i dunno, the way you talk is like school sports are some sort of universally pleasant place where it'd be crazy to maybe want a different, more open division where kids were universally welcomed. no, gays have zero to worry about these days. not from coaches, teammates, other teams, etc.

you say that but x% of folks either oppose trans folks, period, or at least y% oppose them playing sports in the other box.

now, i don't think those folks were in school when someone trans was allowed out of the closet and to go to class trans. nor do they likely have a trans friend.

so i don't think they have thought it through what it might mean to someone to now be allowed to walk around as the sex they see themselves, all day, but then get crap about either sports or bathrooms. like they are in a dress for 8 hours but in the 9th hour of sports practice go hang out with the boys.

that and i think this fake debate basically lets people hide the anti-trans reasons they are doing things. you remove the excuse with this solution. the kids run. if they keep after the kids, it's something else.

but currently the percentages don't back you up that it's so crystal. i have convos with otherwise fairly liberal folks who freak about this. can't be that crystal then.

my response would be that you're trying to race across 100 mph to demanding complete recognition and acceptance right away. when i see the numbers it's often a majority against what you want. THERE IS A REASON POLITICIANS ARE RUNNING ON THE ISSUE. they correctly see it's a popular if gross vote-winner.

in which case, either go get a supreme court decision -- which, good luck with a court who tossed roe backing up federal trans rights -- or figure out a longer term path across.

to me this path gets you playing in 50 states and also helps other groups like handicapped, special olympics that we forget might also want to do track or other sports. provides a potential 2nd home for gay/queer students as well. you compete. you show your stuff. and maybe in a few years people grow up and you can compete as your identity and not in a protected division.

but what i think you're missing is a bunch of red states are about to go try and pass laws saying you're done unless you go back to birth divisions. which is basically a slur and the end of most trans kids competing in those states. at which point do you want to try a third way or not.

you can fight the head to head battle. and on a level i respect it. but right now the acceptance is sufficiently crap it's seen as a winning red political issue. so maybe think about timing and how to bridge it across.

"trend?" are you really suggesting gay/trans stuff is a trend? it's only going away if re-criminalized. it's out there and to me all this squabbling of late is y'all need to figure out some way to come to terms with it. to me this is the interim solution until people grow up or we find a more technical way to go about it.

kind of like i see a lot of this country's recent racial issues as this is no longer the slavery or segregation years, minorities and women are getting their own jobs, competing in the work force, and moving out into the suburbs on their own. plus migrants. and this country is really struggling with the idea their suburban neighbors aren't white reaganites.

but the genie is out of the bottle and we need to start integrating the country more fully. gay and trans people need in. minorities and single women will be your neighbors.

anyhow, to me, conservative sports folks initially struggled to involve women and minorities. they are now struggling with this. but this is how the world is going to be. but my thought process is rather than force feed it now, bridge it with a third division until the country evolves a little.

otherwise i can see from TV that the game is to make trans athletics into the new wedge issue replacing abortion. i can literally see where they mirror some harris abortion ad with a local senate trans sports ad. you don't watch it and trans sports go bye bye. that's the new carrot for the religious right folks to stay on board with otherwise awkward business republicans they shouldn't get along with.

I see how a coed division would be inclusive. The question, though, is whether or not the girls' category would be exclusive if you had a coed category. As someone above mentioned, many trans girls would still want to compete in he girls category. So the problem remains unsolved.

Nothing, she retains the right to compete in her designated category.

the point with paralympics/wheelchair/special olympics being included is to go beyond a narrow gender-politics division to something bigger that brings in all manner of groups who either don't compete or have their own meets off someplace else. special olympics has its side meets because they aren't making the ultra competitive varsity. but why not bring them in like everyone else? it's the division for "everyone."

and by virtue of being a division for everyone, even in the states that are starting to add paralympics or wheelchair divisions, it creates a situation where there might be several in a heat and not just 1 kid. to me the more narrow these added divisions are, the more likely that until near state it's almost a solo time trial/exhibition. you get 6, 8, more kids in, it's a heat. maybe even its own final later.

which is why i was saying leave it open to some JV kid who thought he should have been varsity, or some kid who wasn't gonna make the school team at all, or even just people who for political reasons felt interested or rebellious.

and it's not forced, the kids who wish they'd be college or pro can still run gendered for their mainstream reasons. but it would give teams with roster limits and cuts someplace to send them. it would give some kids some choices. etc. include everyone. this gets it done.

that's not how i intend it. the whole point is it'd be part of the same meets. men's heats. women's heats. coed heats. in each event. later finals in each. my whole point here when i throw around special olympics or paralympics is bring it all, everyone, into the normal meets.

and after a few years of seeing the kids are not peeping toms, rapists, or murderers, or whatever they seem to think is happening here, and kids laying down a range of trans times we can discuss like adults in terms of competitiveness issues, we can move forward.

idea here, to me, is nip it in the bud before we figure out most trans kids finish all over the standings. i have seen kids i swear are boys compete as girls, and no one cares, if they are struggling and finishing last. a lot of this is the fake argument boys are starting to dominate girls' sports. if trans kids have a division and put up times, we can put that bs to rest. "here you see where dozens of trans kids ran in coed across the country, here is what actually happens, they finish all over the place." we then set aside the freakout folks as alarmists.

and then worse, to me, like i said, i think they are gunning for punting trans out of all red state sports. and you can say my theory is soft and not combative enough about it, but the idea is, historically, how many trans were competing. and probably next to no one was "out" about it. this is they are now "out" but until people grow up they need a sports division while the politics evolves.

You seem quite crystal clear transphobic for no good reason at all like the kind OP alludes to.

we had a very good female distance program in HS and if JV boys didn't watch out they would get toasted in common workouts.

i would rephrase it like this. folks forget the varsity level boys are usually the best in the school at what they do. many like me set junior high records just to be an above average HS team member.

i think this issue gets framed in terms of that handful of boys as thought it's them switching. i don't think that's real. the "lia thomas" scenario is very rare. i think most boys-in-girls-sports are gonna be from the pool of everyone else. which, like i was saying, a good varsity girl can beat a JV boy which is like everyone but the best handful guys on campus. and no guy who is top couple in his event and going to big meets is like, hmmm, i want to win state as a girl. does not exist.

nah, this is gendered folks who spend their day dressed like the opposite sex and want to play the sport the same way they live their lives. and given that scenario, odds are they draw from the same pool where only a handful of kids on campus could be better than the best girls.

eg semenya would not have been an elite, state level boys runner here. she would be D3 stuff. if that's where this tops out then i don't buy the supposed threat.

in reality SJSU had a losing record at volleyball last year, and has taken some losses this year and isn't first in their conference. the girl in oregon did well one race but not the other.

that sounds less like a threat to the enterprise and more like kids playing sports and win some lose some.

get more kids competing and we'll prove that out.

i would see it this way. i would encourage it for 50 states. but how it gets used could vary. in a queer friendly blue state, if they want to compete as girls, they would probably be allowed. have at it.

coed is then whoever else off my list is left, including trans who want to promote the category for others.

in a red state trying to ban trans sports, i see it as a way to be in sports without having to play the political games. we call a truce and create coed. the boxes issue, the ugly debates of protecting this from that, or who is forcing whom, go away. people are passing laws. not everyone has a choice.