Technically, VO2 max is not as crucial in the race-specific phase of marathon training because you’re shifting focus to endurance and pacing. In this phase, your long runs, tempo runs, and specific marathon pace work become the priority. But, much like finding an old energy gel in your pocket mid-race, throwing in a bit of VO2 max work can still be useful! It helps maintain your speed and keeps those fast-twitch muscles from gettin lazy, even if you’re primarily focused on endurance. So, it’s not necessary, but a little VO2 max sprinkled in here and there won’t hurt—kind of like those surprise downhill stretches in a marathon.
I think Sage is old school. Modern marathon training methods are much more event specific.
Connor Mantz & Clayton Young often do a session that resembles Yasso 800s 10-14 days before a marathon. Typically 8 800s starting at 2:08 and working down to 2:04. I think you can overdo it, but I think it’s a valuable test to try some version of that 2-3 times in a marathon cycle. If you can’t do anything like 6-8 800s at your MP-equivalent, MP is gonna feel awfully fast on race day around 15 miles.
Old school Aussies did something similar, a 10k tempo a few weeks out to see where they were.
Most generally accepted marathon training programs have a sparce amount of vo2max work. Which is fitting in the sense that if it's just 2-3% of weekly mileage, that reflects the physiological importance of that work as it relates to the marathon. In other words, skipping it is less than ideal, but doing it will by no means be the keystone of a marathon build.
I will also add this, if your body is so fatigued from the overall volume or intensity of a training program that you feel you're just not capable of occasional vo2max work, you're doing something wrong.
I found doing 400m threshold sessions like Jakobs 25 x 400 with 30 seconds recovery useful in a marathon block. I usually split into 4 - 5 sets to start with 30 seconds recovery and 3 mins between sets and progress to 20 straight with 45 seconds rest and eventually 25 off 30 seconds. I usually start a little over 10k pace and work down to close to 5k pace by the last few. You can get the leg turn over and running efficiency gains without pushing as hard as in a true Vo2 max session. I did the above once every two weeks in a marathon block and it worked well for me.
Most generally accepted marathon training programs have a sparce amount of vo2max work. Which is fitting in the sense that if it's just 2-3% of weekly mileage, that reflects the physiological importance of that work as it relates to the marathon. In other words, skipping it is less than ideal, but doing it will by no means be the keystone of a marathon build.
I will also add this, if your body is so fatigued from the overall volume or intensity of a training program that you feel you're just not capable of occasional vo2max work, you're doing something wrong.
Marathon training is where doing your easy runs too fast will bite you. If you’re doing lower volume you can get away with it because of the greater recovery time.
Most generally accepted marathon training programs have a sparce amount of vo2max work. Which is fitting in the sense that if it's just 2-3% of weekly mileage, that reflects the physiological importance of that work as it relates to the marathon. In other words, skipping it is less than ideal, but doing it will by no means be the keystone of a marathon build.
I will also add this, if your body is so fatigued from the overall volume or intensity of a training program that you feel you're just not capable of occasional vo2max work, you're doing something wrong.
Marathon training is where doing your easy runs too fast will bite you. If you’re doing lower volume you can get away with it because of the greater recovery time.
I'm not sure if my training ideas around marathon prep are "old school"....I just honestly don't think much has really changed over the decades in terms of training theory. Without PEDs (likely) and super-shoes people were running 2:07-2:09 decades and decades ago...even before I was born in 1985....
If people go back and re-read my first post in this thread I still emphasize that most people need higher mileage, strength and threshold specific stamina/endurance for a better marathon. To me that means the bread and butter of marathon training is lots of Aerobic Threshold to Lactate Threshold miles and "around MP paced miles" in Long Runs (or fartleks in Long Runs that negative split with bouts of minutes at 10km effort even).
Think like Canova style :"105% and 110%" of goal Marathon Pace. At Hansons it was a lot of workouts at "10 seconds to 20 seconds per mile faster than goal MP". Not quite Vo2max, but Threshold.
The thing is, with a sub 3-hour marathon runner their Aerobic Threshold can be slightly slower than their Marathon Race Pace so doing more "speed work" can be emphasized a bit more. By "Speed work" I'm talking about sprinkling in these Vo2max style interval workouts (be they 800m reps or 1km or Mile repeats) at 5km-10km pace. It's certainly not "pure Vo2max though" and the emphasis should be on volume closer to 10km pace rather than getting down to 5km race pace. It's all about Running Economy and trying to get more efficient at paces from velocity at Vo2max to velocity at Lactate Threshold to velocity at Aerobic Threshold. I guess I also don't see a "marathon specific" phase in a marathon build as in my mind all the phases blend together and it's all specific to 26.2.....if anything the "Vo2max speed" reps could come earlier in a plan or later almost during the taper phase....
Everyone has already known for decades that marathon training racing is about smashing a lot of carbs during the race, doing high mileage, and doing a lot of Lydiard style periodization and quality Long Runs. Sure more people are using lactate meters a bit more now and comparing that with relative HR data and pace....but the biggest innovation by far in running times and competitive performances in the past several years (imo) have boiled down to:
1. Supershoes
2. "New PEDs" and forms of doping
A lot of pros doing "double threshold" all the time could very well be on PEDs....imo
Marathon training is where doing your easy runs too fast will bite you. If you’re doing lower volume you can get away with it because of the greater recovery time.
I'm not sure if my training ideas around marathon prep are "old school"....I just honestly don't think much has really changed over the decades in terms of training theory. Without PEDs (likely) and super-shoes people were running 2:07-2:09 decades and decades ago...even before I was born in 1985....
If people go back and re-read my first post in this thread I still emphasize that most people need higher mileage, strength and threshold specific stamina/endurance for a better marathon. To me that means the bread and butter of marathon training is lots of Aerobic Threshold to Lactate Threshold miles and "around MP paced miles" in Long Runs (or fartleks in Long Runs that negative split with bouts of minutes at 10km effort even).
Think like Canova style :"105% and 110%" of goal Marathon Pace. At Hansons it was a lot of workouts at "10 seconds to 20 seconds per mile faster than goal MP". Not quite Vo2max, but Threshold.
The thing is, with a sub 3-hour marathon runner their Aerobic Threshold can be slightly slower than their Marathon Race Pace so doing more "speed work" can be emphasized a bit more. By "Speed work" I'm talking about sprinkling in these Vo2max style interval workouts (be they 800m reps or 1km or Mile repeats) at 5km-10km pace. It's certainly not "pure Vo2max though" and the emphasis should be on volume closer to 10km pace rather than getting down to 5km race pace. It's all about Running Economy and trying to get more efficient at paces from velocity at Vo2max to velocity at Lactate Threshold to velocity at Aerobic Threshold. I guess I also don't see a "marathon specific" phase in a marathon build as in my mind all the phases blend together and it's all specific to 26.2.....if anything the "Vo2max speed" reps could come earlier in a plan or later almost during the taper phase....
Everyone has already known for decades that marathon training racing is about smashing a lot of carbs during the race, doing high mileage, and doing a lot of Lydiard style periodization and quality Long Runs. Sure more people are using lactate meters a bit more now and comparing that with relative HR data and pace....but the biggest innovation by far in running times and competitive performances in the past several years (imo) have boiled down to:
1. Supershoes
2. "New PEDs" and forms of doping
A lot of pros doing "double threshold" all the time could very well be on PEDs....imo
Do you really think that the sport is that dirty? That many of these ridiculous times are some new PED?
As I understand it, the goal of VO2 max workouts in this phase is to sharpen your speed and also to make MP feel easier.
But I also thought VO2 max workouts are the hardest on the musculoskeletal system, putting you at the most risk for injury. Which of course is not what you want to happen in the last 8 weeks before the big day!
Wouldn’t just doing fast LT pace intervals, such as mile or K repeats, be “fast” enough to achieve the same goals? But also be less risky? And maybe even more race specific?
For me, marathon PR of 3:10, going for 3:05, recent 1:26:20 half and 18:30 5k, so like 6 x mile @ 6:25ish pace. This kind of weekday workout plus MP work during the long run (every other).
if you are doing vo2 max work at any point in a marathon training cycle you are doing it wrong