When Lydiard was with athletes doing reps he just watched them and could tell when one was working too hard. Then he'd either adjust the session or bag it. His idea with reps was that the later ones shouldn't require more effort than the early ones. He was never keen on paying attention to heart rates but he told me that one way to monitor an interval session was to check it after each rep. If it was only a couple or so beats different in the later reps than the early ones with similar times you were fine. But if it was climbing as the session went on you were "racing your" training and he'd say you should stop.
The best source as to whether a workout is too hard, is the runner himself.
Often that's true. But it's very common for someone to want to average, say 65 seconds for a session of 10 x 400 and is really committed to doing that no matter the cost and has to push harder with each rep than on the previous one to get the time he wants. He either doesn't recognize that he's going far too hard in his workout or doesn't care because he wants those numbers so badly.
When I was beginning the whole point of interval sessions was to push to your limit or beyond. We'd get a session where we were supposed to do something like 10 x 440 between 68 and 72. I'd go something like 71, 72, 75, 80, and could be up around 100 for the later reps. Obviously those sessions were too hard but at the time the idea that you could do an interval session too hard was not around yet. I didn't know such a thing was possible.
Sure, athletes who know what they should do and are honest enough with themselves to recognize how they're responding are the best sources of knowing if a workout is too hard. But I've found such athletes sort of rare and almost non existent among high school runners.
If someone wants my expert help just send me a message. Runners at all levels and age are very welcome. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪 Coach J.S 👋
I am looking for a coach. Why do you think you're an expert and why should I pick you? There are many options from people with websites and good reviews but I don't find any good reviews about you.
How would you recommend determining how hard you should go in workouts if not 100%?
When you do so called maxVO2 intervals they should be at your 5 k race pace. Famous Ph and coach Jack Daniels found out running them faster at 1500m- 3 k pace didn't give any significant difference in training result and therefore he adviced to stay at 5 k race pace when it reduced risk of overtraining and injury.Even when you do so called repetition intervals at 1500/mile race pace/ 3k pace they aren't and should not be at 100% maxVO2 pace. When you do so called threshold intervals they should be at about 88-92 % of max heartrate or if you use lactate measuring about 3,5- 4 mmol.As you read what HRE wrote what Lydiard avocated the first rep in a perfect interval session should be at same pace as the last one and difference in pulse after first rep and the last rep very little. Good luck with your training.If someone wants my expert help just send me a message. Runners at all levels and age are very welcome. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪 Coach J.S 👋
Jakob's hr rises throughout his intervals. Do you think he's doing them wrong?
I never understand people who can train hard enough to leave it in workouts.
It seems difficult for me to hit paces close to balls to the wall race paces in anything other than an actual race.
Then you ( and many more, you are far from alone in this.) don't know how to handle the atleast as important recovery period between reps compared to the importance of correct effort.
I never understand people who can train hard enough to leave it in workouts.
It seems difficult for me to hit paces close to balls to the wall race paces in anything other than an actual race.
Then you ( and many more, you are far from alone in this.) don't know how to handle the atleast as important recovery period between reps compared to the importance of correct effort.
Why do your runners get slower? You are a very bad coach. You also lie a lot.
How would you recommend determining how hard you should go in workouts if not 100%?
When you do so called maxVO2 intervals they should be at your 5 k race pace. Famous Ph and coach Jack Daniels found out running them faster at 1500m- 3 k pace didn't give any significant difference in training result and therefore he adviced to stay at 5 k race pace when it reduced risk of overtraining and injury.Even when you do so called repetition intervals at 1500/mile race pace/ 3k pace they aren't and should not be at 100% maxVO2 pace. When you do so called threshold intervals they should be at about 88-92 % of max heartrate or if you use lactate measuring about 3,5- 4 mmol.As you read what HRE wrote what Lydiard avocated the first rep in a perfect interval session should be at same pace as the last one and difference in pulse after first rep and the last rep very little. Good luck with your training.If someone wants my expert help just send me a message. Runners at all levels and age are very welcome. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪 Coach J.S 👋
Hey Coach JS, I appreciate your responses and I do believe you to be sincere. I think for the vast majority of runners, your plan will help them tremendously and might very well be the optimal training plan, especially if you include some cross training as “doubling.” Certainly for a high schooler it’s optimal.
However, where we differ is I just don’t think an elite runner, an elite marathoner gets to the same place doing 60 mpw as they do 120 mpw+. If the argument is, you can accomplish 90% of what you otherwise could with a lot less injury risk, and maybe that’s a better strategy over time, then I could agree with you. But I just don’t think a Conner Mantz, for example, gets to 2:07 and hopefully faster on 60 mpw. I just don’t see it. I don’t see a Mark Nenow running 27:20 before shoe doping on 60 mpw.
There’s something about the extra 60 miles that improves running economy and makes the entire machine more efficient, that develops more mitochondria and higher-functioning “throughput.” Injury or staleness is part of the risk of being an elite athlete, and perhaps this is where your advice of not going to the well in workouts is most apropos.
Again, 60 mpw w the pace work you recommend is going to serve the vast majority of runners very well, and the ones prone to injury would be much better served to double using swimming or elliptical. I would’ve loved to have had you as a coach in high school. But I cannot fathom any sub-13:00, sub-27:00, or sub-2:05 runners getting there on 60 mpw.
The best source as to whether a workout is too hard, is the runner himself.
Often that's true. But it's very common for someone to want to average, say 65 seconds for a session of 10 x 400 and is really committed to doing that no matter the cost and has to push harder with each rep than on the previous one to get the time he wants. He either doesn't recognize that he's going far too hard in his workout or doesn't care because he wants those numbers so badly.
When I was beginning the whole point of interval sessions was to push to your limit or beyond. We'd get a session where we were supposed to do something like 10 x 440 between 68 and 72. I'd go something like 71, 72, 75, 80, and could be up around 100 for the later reps. Obviously those sessions were too hard but at the time the idea that you could do an interval session too hard was not around yet. I didn't know such a thing was possible.
Sure, athletes who know what they should do and are honest enough with themselves to recognize how they're responding are the best sources of knowing if a workout is too hard. But I've found such athletes sort of rare and almost non existent among high school runners.
Great post. Amen. Dare I say most high school and college runners run way too hard, in both workouts and on recovery runs. That should be the ultimate takeaway here, and that’s where both you and JS are correct. Regardless of the actual mileage, getting that pacing correct is the most important part of the training plan. Easier said than done. The end of my running career was running everything too hard.
When you do so called maxVO2 intervals they should be at your 5 k race pace. Famous Ph and coach Jack Daniels found out running them faster at 1500m- 3 k pace didn't give any significant difference in training result and therefore he adviced to stay at 5 k race pace when it reduced risk of overtraining and injury.Even when you do so called repetition intervals at 1500/mile race pace/ 3k pace they aren't and should not be at 100% maxVO2 pace. When you do so called threshold intervals they should be at about 88-92 % of max heartrate or if you use lactate measuring about 3,5- 4 mmol.As you read what HRE wrote what Lydiard avocated the first rep in a perfect interval session should be at same pace as the last one and difference in pulse after first rep and the last rep very little. Good luck with your training.If someone wants my expert help just send me a message. Runners at all levels and age are very welcome. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪 Coach J.S 👋
Jakob's hr rises throughout his intervals. Do you think he's doing them wrong?
If you mean his hr rises during the reps it's of course normal and the same for all runners. If as I think you mean his pulse rises during the reps from the first to the last the difference is not too much as HRE wrote Lydiard avocated ( (and of course the same I agree). So, of course Jakob doesn't make his interval sessions wrong, but they could be " sharpened" when it comes to effectiveness and even better. Had been great to coach him to even better greatness and world records at 1500m/ mile/ 5000m/10000m ,half and marathon , but we all know I will never get that chance of course. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
So, of course Jakob doesn't make his interval sessions wrong, but they could be " sharpened" when it comes to effectiveness and even better. Had been great to coach him to even better greatness and world records at 1500m/ mile/ 5000m/10000m ,half and marathon , but we all know I will never get that chance of course. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
you don't want to go too hard in training on a daily,. weekly basis and not recover, where fatigue and exhaustion is deep, depletion into the bones.
you can basically go as hard as you want over shorter distances, though this is not the best also, provided you recover
psychologically you can do some pretty long and hard workouts once in a while, and this is of psychological benefit, knowing you have deep reserves. can dig deep. of course you need to recover from something like this
i absolutely hate the marathoner who reports doing like a 22 mile run at altitude with 445 miles not far out from the marathon. that is the stupidest, unless he's actually capable of a 200 marathon where that workout is actually "easy"
all bets are off if you are on EPO and the secret sauce, where you'll be recovering just fine in a lot of cases.
of course, now we have chicks running bigger sections of a marathon at 44x mile pace and not overly tired at the end,
and you have "clean" runners working with sodium bicarb, why not look at calcium, magnesium potassium bicarb? vitaman B injections, why not other vitamins, etc.
why not admit it, there is no morality really in sport, all training, and diet, and hacks is for performance enhancing, by definition.
and a PED that is something that actually works very well.
and it need not be synthetic. there are plenty of PED molecules out there in nature,
i.e. coke, opium, sterols, steroids, etc.
face it, athletics, cycling, boxing, everything are drug sports, for anyone that likes, needs it for a decent paycheck
I am looking for a coach. Why do you think you're an expert and why should I pick you? There are many options from people with websites and good reviews but I don't find any good reviews about you.
Well, I have been an online coach since 2015 with so far winners of 12 bigger international races as e.g Valencia and Nice-Cannes marathons back in 2016 and Zwolle half twice .My longtime coached Kenya elite runner Sammy Nyokaye won a bigger half marathon in Kenya and around 4500 $ in first price. My best elite runner Josphat Kipchirchir Too resently won Virginia 10 miler. I had a website some years ago with e.g review from a Dutch master runner who wŕote I coached him to many personal records and was very happy with the coaching.....
I had this website but quit it when the owner of the "sitehotel" changed and cost to have it left rise. Now I have a new site coming up next weekend.
So far every runner I started to coach improved, some of them magical fast.
You are of course welcome to try me as your coach. I'm sure it won't take more than 2-3 months in my coaching for you to improve.
Well, I have been an online coach since 2015 with so far winners of 12 bigger international races as e.g Valencia and Nice-Cannes marathons back in 2016 and Zwolle half twice .My longtime coached Kenya elite runner Sammy Nyokaye won a bigger half marathon in Kenya and around 4500 $ in first price. My best elite runner Josphat Kipchirchir Too resently won Virginia 10 miler. I had a website some years ago with e.g review from a Dutch master runner who wŕote I coached him to many personal records and was very happy with the coaching.....
I had this website but quit it when the owner of the "sitehotel" changed and cost to have it left rise. Now I have a new site coming up next weekend.
So far every runner I started to coach improved, some of them magical fast.
You are of course welcome to try me as your coach. I'm sure it won't take more than 2-3 months in my coaching for you to improve.
COACH J.S 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
You never coached a sub 2:!4 marathoner. You didn't coach the winners of Valencia or Nice-Cannes. You are not Josphat Too's coach. You had ONE review after all those years! lol So far every runner you coached got worse except Rene. Are you going to say Letlhogonolo improved? He got slower and slower under your coaching. Why do you lie so much?
I'm obviously far from elite level, but I do think I benefitted (unintentionally) from this philosophy. When I was running (15 years ago), I was the fastest guy at our small school. I routinely worked out with guys a lot slower than I was but we would run reps together. The reps were probably a little easier for me and a fair bit harder for the other guys.
I wound up running at a level above my training in races and my teammates wound up running a level below. My best 1500 my senior year was ~3:43 and I think I ran under 60-second pace all of once or twice in practice.
I'm obviously far from elite level, but I do think I benefitted (unintentionally) from this philosophy. When I was running (15 years ago), I was the fastest guy at our small school. I routinely worked out with guys a lot slower than I was but we would run reps together. The reps were probably a little easier for me and a fair bit harder for the other guys.
I wound up running at a level above my training in races and my teammates wound up running a level below. My best 1500 my senior year was ~3:43 and I think I ran under 60-second pace all of once or twice in practice.
Bill Baillie spent a few years trying to get under four minutes for the doing standard sessions like 60 second quarters and 220s just under thirty. Didn't work and he decided to focus on the 5,000. A mutual friend told he slowed the quarters to around 70 and never went under 32 for the 220s and finally got to 3:59.
The best source as to whether a workout is too hard, is the runner himself.
Often that's true. But it's very common for someone to want to average, say 65 seconds for a session of 10 x 400 and is really committed to doing that no matter the cost and has to push harder with each rep than on the previous one to get the time he wants. He either doesn't recognize that he's going far too hard in his workout or doesn't care because he wants those numbers so badly.
When I was beginning the whole point of interval sessions was to push to your limit or beyond. We'd get a session where we were supposed to do something like 10 x 440 between 68 and 72. I'd go something like 71, 72, 75, 80, and could be up around 100 for the later reps. Obviously those sessions were too hard but at the time the idea that you could do an interval session too hard was not around yet. I didn't know such a thing was possible.
Sure, athletes who know what they should do and are honest enough with themselves to recognize how they're responding are the best sources of knowing if a workout is too hard. But I've found such athletes sort of rare and almost non existent among high school runners.
Wow. This hit home for me as much as anything I've ever read on LetsRun! It's validating to hear you so vividly describe the unspoken approach I always had to intervals, an approach my early coaches encouraged. I was probably seven years into running (end of college) before I started to be able to "recognize that I was going to hard..." I truly had no gauge for anything other than whether I'd hit the numbers.
Another way I've thought about it goes like this:
Definition of an easy workout = Any workout I can complete
Definition of a hard workout = Any workout I fail to complete
I don't remember the whole conversation but it was with Lydiard and some of his takes on interval training. A problem with it, he said, and I 100% agreed, is that it's so easy to get sucked into wanting to run sessions that are SO impressive and it gets even easier if you're doing those sessions in a group. It's one thing to turn in such a session if it's just a by product of having a really good day and being in really good form. That can be great for your confidence. But STRAINING to get such sessions ("train don't strain") isn't going to do you much good.
Most good coaches who aren’t sociopaths believe this. To get the volume you need as a professional runner you can’t beat yourself up too much on any one day.