Actually, nobody is more in touch. I have been coaching high school for the past 10 years. I used to coach at the collegiate level and I have many friends who currently do. I had 6 kids from the track team go D1 last year, 3 were distance runners. All 6 were walk-ons. The fastest distance runner ran 4:17 junior year and 4:13 senior year. I had a kid the year before run 4:14 junior year and 4:11 senior year. ROJO is confused thinking low level D1 schools provide scholarships to slower kids. They have less money and barely provide more for a slower kid. 12.6 is the max for fully funded schools. That's it. You all seem to think schools will pay for freshmen who aren't close to scoring. That woukd cause a mutiny because seniors would be underpaid. Any coach will be happy to show you Tfrrs standings in theor conference and explain how scholarships are allocated. My kids have been through it with dozens and maybe hundreds of schools. I will encourage one of my friends to contact ROJO to explain it to him. I know several at the P4 level as well as mid major level.
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You have lost touch. The Big East had 8 guys break 4 indoor 8th in Mountain West was 4:02. 8th in the Big 10 was 4:01. That is pretty super conference. 8th best in the D3 Wiac conference was 4:10.
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bow man wrote:
Actually, nobody is more in touch. I have been coaching high school for the past 10 years. I used to coach at the collegiate level and I have many friends who currently do. I had 6 kids from the track team go D1 last year, 3 were distance runners. All 6 were walk-ons. The fastest distance runner ran 4:17 junior year and 4:13 senior year. I had a kid the year before run 4:14 junior year and 4:11 senior year. ROJO is confused thinking low level D1 schools provide scholarships to slower kids. They have less money and barely provide more for a slower kid. 12.6 is the max for fully funded schools. That's it. You all seem to think schools will pay for freshmen who aren't close to scoring. That woukd cause a mutiny because seniors would be underpaid. Any coach will be happy to show you Tfrrs standings in theor conference and explain how scholarships are allocated. My kids have been through it with dozens and maybe hundreds of schools. I will encourage one of my friends to contact ROJO to explain it to him. I know several at the P4 level as well as mid major level.
but what i have posted is true, so you most certainly don't know as much as you think. Times don't tell a full story of a runner. And sometimes the coaches can find that. they see when kids win certain types of meets.
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Running UberNerd wrote:
chicobeans wrote:
sooo many more elements go into this - the kid with the public school coach who knows zero about the sport and is just collecting a paycheck vs the 30 year private school coach with the home course named after him - problem is there are many embellishments from coaches etc with hs kids that all try to convey massive upside - even when it’s all been sucked out. Mileage is a biggie - any hs kid running 65+ miles senior year summer? pass
Pass on all kids who are serious and show they’re committed to the sport. Seems smart. You know, like Nico Young, Casey Clinger. It’s fine to try to find diamonds in the rough. But serious kids often progress well, too. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
if you are knocking on the door of 4:00 and winning or placing high at huge meets, 65+ miles is fine.
if you are a 4:12 guy on 65 miles, your upside isn't the same.
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I don't believe you. The kid may be confused. What school?
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Carnegie Mellon D3 Associate Head Track Coach and Head XC Coach Tim Connolley ran for Notre Dame and successfully coached there for 25 years before coming back to his native Pittsburgh. Has had great success at CMU especially with the Men's Program!
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Yes, Williams in particular has a strong program, great trails, and great academics. You might be one of the top guys on the team, but they have had some seriously fast guys there in recent years, e.g. 3:56 mile for Aidan Ryan in 2022. Admittedly, I went there, so I am biased :)
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rojo wrote:
Are people insane? A 4:12 as a junior in HS should not be looking at D3 unless that's where they want to go.
I guess these super conferences may screw over people as in an 18-person league it's hard to win. But if he runs 4:12 as a junior, he's likely to run like 4;07 as a senior at least. How many kids in the country do that?
The key is are you any good at xc?
If you want a full-ride, yes, look at some lower lwevel school but I'd think plenty of P4 schools would be happy to have you.
Agreed
I think a good midmajor D1 would be the best fit. Look at those schools that have a lot of guys running 1:52-1:55 in the 800m, and 4:08-4:15 for the mile, with a stud or two running under or threatening the 1:50-4:00 boundaries. You could get a preferred walk on to the majority of programs especially if you continue improving through your junior season, but being a 4:10ish guy at a program where 4-5 guys are breaking 4:00 or running the 1500m equivalent is gonna be a tough battle, most coaches run their team like a business and if you aren’t going to be scoring in track/XC you likely arent going to get a lot of attention from your coach other than “Here’s your workout and here’s the mileage I want you running”. That can be a hard adjustment when you are used to being a standout star athlete at your highschool program.
If it’s not a HIGHLY esteemed school for academics it really doesn’t matter if you don’t go to a big university. Get your 4 year or even just associates done with a good GPA and then transfer to a bigger university. If you can be a sub 4:05 guy in 3-4 years and do your best to keep your GPA over 3.5 you can get into a really good school both academically and athletically.
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high school xc coach wrote:
Running UberNerd wrote:
Pass on all kids who are serious and show they’re committed to the sport. Seems smart. You know, like Nico Young, Casey Clinger. It’s fine to try to find diamonds in the rough. But serious kids often progress well, too. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
if you are knocking on the door of 4:00 and winning or placing high at huge meets, 65+ miles is fine.
if you are a 4:12 guy on 65 miles, your upside isn't the same.
It’s not so simple. Matthew Wilkinson was a committed hs school runner who ran 4:19. Half a decade of 100 mile weeks got him to the Olympics. A 98th-percentile talent with a 99.9th percentile work ethic can contribute on a good college team. Not saying college coaches need to allocate all their scholarships to kids like that. Just don’t write them off.
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Any of the top schools in the RMAC. A mix or good and okay academics and then all the schools are at altitude with good history of development, and consistently race against the top schools in the nation. Also plenty of opportunity to be nationally competitive from the start in D2.
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kid emails Patriot league coaches with a 4:12 junior year - 50/50 chance they will respond. Likely depends on if they have pure speed (400 time sub 50) or x country success on other side of spectrum
Patriot league is best of the bottom D1 - all good academically though, but even a 4:12 is not a no brainer21 -
NORTH LONDON IS RED wrote:
A10 schools. Loyola Chicago - although they seem to have quite a few foreign students now.
Loyola Chicago is around $70k and not sure a 4:12 would draw much attention there.
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Loyola Chicago, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Eastern Kentucky, BU, Drake, Southern Utah, Pitt, Northeastern, Furman, Eastern Michigan, Ivies, military academies, Providence, UMass Lowell, Stony Brook...any of these schools is a good place to start. They all have competent distance programs full of 3:40-3:50 1500/13:30-14:30 5k types, and many of them care enough about their program to put in a considerable amount of scholarship money. I had friends who had good experiences at Loyola Chicago, Charlotte, Cornell, Princeton, and UMass Lowell, but the rest I have mostly heard good things about.
Ignore the comments recommending you to go to D3 or a crappy team like Colgate or Lehigh. Your times are more than good enough for an above-average D1 program and you'll get much better opportunities at these schools to compete at D1 meets and get first-hand experience training with sub-4:00 guys (which you probably have the potential to get to).
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bow man wrote:
Actually, nobody is more in touch. I have been coaching high school for the past 10 years. I used to coach at the collegiate level and I have many friends who currently do. I had 6 kids from the track team go D1 last year, 3 were distance runners. All 6 were walk-ons. The fastest distance runner ran 4:17 junior year and 4:13 senior year. I had a kid the year before run 4:14 junior year and 4:11 senior year. ROJO is confused thinking low level D1 schools provide scholarships to slower kids. They have less money and barely provide more for a slower kid. 12.6 is the max for fully funded schools. That's it. You all seem to think schools will pay for freshmen who aren't close to scoring. That woukd cause a mutiny because seniors would be underpaid. Any coach will be happy to show you Tfrrs standings in theor conference and explain how scholarships are allocated. My kids have been through it with dozens and maybe hundreds of schools. I will encourage one of my friends to contact ROJO to explain it to him. I know several at the P4 level as well as mid major level.
There will be no more 12.6 max fully funded. Now schools can 100% fund 17 roster spots, that means 17 full rides, if they want to and up to 45 in track and field.
That being said, our last three #1 runners were not faster than 4:10 and all got 40-100% rides at SEC schools.
Here is putting things in perspective with data -
The 25th fastest senior 1600m runner ran 4:06.34 last year, so RoJo is right, if you are running 4:07 as a senior, you're going to get money at a P4, especially next year.
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Teams have 12.6 scholarships. Being a good high school runner doesn't necessarily result in money in college. Scoring points in college earns money. Many good high school athletes walkon and then work their way into scholarships when they start scoring. A point usually results in 10%. P4 conferences these days have 8 guys at 4:00 or faster. If a schoolmpays guys who aren't scoring, then they have to underpay their scorers.
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Recruitprocesswoes wrote:
Hypothetical, probably. What would a good program be for a 4:12-14 1600 range kid (as a junior). Looking for a program that takes running seriously, has a good coach who works to develop kids all 4 years. Preferably in the north, south, or Midwest. Parents make too much for any kind of financial aide so looking for a school with a tuition around 50k or below or where those times could get me there. Academics are fine but really heavily academic schools would be a stretch. I'm aware P4s are all out of the question w times and roster limits so looking outside those. Does anything like that exist?
I know it’s not the geography you want, but Cal Poly SLO and UCSB seem like great places to go to school, and are under 50k for out of state tuition.
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bow man wrote:
Teams have 12.6 scholarships. Being a good high school runner doesn't necessarily result in money in college. Scoring points in college earns money. Many good high school athletes walkon and then work their way into scholarships when they start scoring. A point usually results in 10%. P4 conferences these days have 8 guys at 4:00 or faster. If a schoolmpays guys who aren't scoring, then they have to underpay their scorers.
No, here is the scholarship guideline letter from a P4 that actually uses a rubric for scholarship and there are no more 12.6 scholarships at P4 starting 2025. I've been on 7 recruiting trips with my athlete this year. This was the only school that had something on paper like this, but I'll share it because it's probably how many apply logic -
40% Scholarship - Conference Scorer or Top 8 Runner for XC Qualifying Team
80% Scholarship - Conference Top 3 Potential or Top 5 for a Top 25 Team
100% Scholarship - Conference Champion potential, NCAA All-American
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Purdue
Miami of Ohio
Butler
CMU
EMU
You can try for Ohio State actually
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UNC Charlotte
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Yes. Those numbers are consisteny with what I told you. As far as limits increasing, the general concensus is that many teams will be eliminated and few teams will increase scholarships thereby resulting in fewer total scholarships available.
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