My Team Makes Me Question Whether I Know Anything About Running

IMO scrapping the VO2 would be something to do as others have posted. The races are the VO2 and light jogging, tempo intervals at true tempo pace (I like the VDOT's with Jack Daniel's PhD ) and as the important race come up, same tempo with less , much less volume of tempo and more rest between tempo reps. Also I like using specific healing tech from my physical therapy background. We use it for my boy and he's having great results and feeling happy and bouncy in races. LMK if you want more details of the self treatment stuff we use..

The amount of mpw is anywhere from 30-50 depending on the age and experience of the kid. Honestly, when it comes to mpw there is only so much I feel comfortable asking of a HS kid. They are already racing every week, and have 7 hrs of school every day+ god knows what else going on (church, family, school clubs, jobs.)

There is a law of diminishing returns, and having a nice big fat training log is fine, but if you're dead legged on race day does that matter? There are no medals for prettiest training log.

What I've decided is that I am going to nix the vo2m stuff after this week, substitute the tempo reps with a Progression run, and vo2m with R pace work.

I’m with you on the mileage. Some aren’t even willing to do that much. They have their kids always under 30 because they don’t want them to be hurt or tired or complain or they don’t want their practices to last that long. I might go a touch over 50 in the offseason but that’s about it.

You might have just identified the problem. I will often substitute tempos with some threshold intervals with short recovery but I believe they still need the unbroken tempo runs on occasion to develop the mental endurance needed to push through the discomfort of a race. The threshold intervals might provide a great physical stimulus, but they don't always produce the same toughness that a tempo run can. Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 tempo runs spread out over a few weeks before they really figure out how to run that type of workout, but I believe it's worth investing the time in to get right. I don't always schedule a tempo run every week, but I might do that if I feel they need more experience at those to get them right. I have found that often times the majority of the team kind of turns the corner all at once on those types of workouts. The weather can also have a lot of influence on the quality of those workouts. The Gulf coast humidity means we often don't have good tempo runs until we get a good cool front in October.

I am a retired coach. One thing I always did when I felt that way was to set the team up for a "special" workout. Could be anything hard. It was a goal that was not a race but would force them outside of their comfort zone and really dig. I would talk about the upcoming workout for a week to get them pumped up. Then on workout day, I would note anything good that anyone was doing and make a big deal of it. When nearly everybody hit their targets, I would pump them up again. worked most of the time. Sounds like the issue is the 6 inches between their ears...

everyone wants to dissect your brain, but somehow have forgotten that training is simply a stimulus that makes the body respond. I would question if these kids are fueling, getting enough sleep, etc. no kid is making progress on 3 hrs of sleep or stressed over personal life problems

This season I haven't come within 2 minutes of my PR - it's been a hot fall, I think it's the heat. Maybe this is affecting your runners?

Even if you were undercooking them with the workouts they would still be getting stimulus from racing. Stagnation is typical of overtraining but your weekly schedule seems very reasonable. Sometimes you just get unlucky with the quality of runners you get as a coach.

With one month left, they aren't going to get any more fitness. So if they back off the hard training it should help give them more impetus to really race.

On a semi-similar note, one thing that helped flip around my worst high school season was adjusting how I approached a few races. I'm not sure what your typical strategy discussions are like, but setting tactical goals for the next 2-3 races (if you can afford not to fully race them) could be useful. You could try something like this:

Race 1: Have them run more conservatively than usual the first mile, maintain or speed up a little the second, and really try to burn up the last mile (which should be their fastest/hardest, depending on the course). Race 2: Have them run steady but not quite as carefully the first mile, hit the second mile hard, and hang on as well as they can the last mile. Really emphasize in the days leading up to the race that the only measure of success here is how well they run the second mile, even if they crash the last mile; make sure to heavily praise them for it afterward, too, especially the ones who hit a wall after the second mile. Pace is tricky because of course variance, but they should be able to easily tell the second mile was their "best" one (unless something finally clicks and they can hold it until the end). It's a while ago now, so I don't remember exactly, but I think I did something like setting the fastest of the six miles across the two races as my goal pace for the next one--I distinctly remember not hitting whatever time goal I had because the course was rough, but I raced well enough to not really care.

This should give them something new, specific, and easily achievable to focus on. Assuming they manage it, a taste of success could be what they need to turn things around. I did it on my own, but bonus points if a few of them can group up and race together as a team. (Completely spitballing here, but I wonder if breaking things up like this might also benefit kids who are used to running threshold reps rather than long, continuous tempos?)

If they have a ways to go wouldn’t race them The level you describe just help them get out of the rut of jogging slow

XC is simply a much tougher sport for the teams towards the back. And racing hard isn’t the best way to make the jump.

But it is possible to do the work, get into good shape, and still run badly. That is sort of what the OP described. That is why so many posters think the problem might be one of attitude.

I know that I was a terrible runner but I gave 110% in meets and so did the majority of my HS teammates. We probably outperformed our fitness (whatever that means) just because we had a team leader who made every race feel like we were going into battle.

p.s. That was a fun way to race, as if it mattered!

Just an observation. Where is the long run? Everything feeds off the long run in my opinion. Too late at this point in the season, but in the future I would plug in the long run on Monday's during the season. Since race day is typically Saturday, a workout on Monday is not enough recovery. You're asking them to come back hard after only one day of recovery. Their legs are still trashed from the previous Saturday race. Long run Monday is fun, acts as a recovery day mentally and physically, and continues the build strength and endurance throughout the XC season and beyond. If the long run is dropped once the season begins often times the team will be too burned out when it comes time for the championship meets towards the end of the season. Make Wednesday the hammer day, the rest filler easy days with fast strides after every easy recovery run. One workout and a hard race per week is effective and avoids mental and physical burnout early on in the season. Hills and threshold early on in the summer, Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday long run. Switch the long run to Monday once the season/school begins. Race pace stuff early in the season (Workout Wednesday) With about three weeks before the important meets, drop the long run and add a short fast speed day. Now run faster than race pace Tuesday and Thursday. Longer reps on Tuesday, like 800s and shorter fast stuff on Thursday, like 300s and 200s. Still maintain fast strides after all the easy recovery runs. Good Luck!

Firstly, hang in there coach and thanks for giving your time and energy to the kids and the sport.

Suggestions (other have mentioned some of these).

*Don't try to fit everything into seven days. Consider a two week cycle.

*Drop the V02 workouts on Wed. The race is the V02 effort.

*I would encourage more effort-based work. Various hills (short - speed, long - mental and physical endurance). Hills aren't as taxing on the body, but have a high return.

*Weekly medium long run or long run every other week.

*Strides to keep pop in legs, work on form and something for them to think about doing well.

*Fartlek- really mix it up, maybe use a whistle or even cones or paint X's and O's on a dirt road / path if you want to go by effort vs a set amount of time.

*A workout that hits different energy system, but keeps them mentally engaged. Example start with a little threshold, then a little V02 and end with something shorter, maybe short hills.

*Threshold is very good. Agreed young kids generally do better or do it correctly if it's a shorter distance (maybe 800m or 1k, etc.) with a short recovery. But also a progression run (say 20 min where they are finishing at threshold effort) is good for the mind and body.

*Basic core / strength work - a simple circuit that they can do constantly a couple of time per week with the team or on own.

Just some suggestions.

take a step back and ask your self what is working and what isn't.

If an athlete is fast depends on many factors including their genetic ability. Why else would athletes all do similar workouts with some running mid 18's to others breaking 16min.

I would discourage you from 'cooking them' and run threshold sessions with spice at the end. An example might be a 8-10min threshold + 10-12x30second efforts with 30 seconds rest. Or find a hill and do hill efforts 8x30-40 seconds followed by 10min threshold. Whatever you do make it fun but challenging.

Maybe the training is stagnate and you need to shake things up a bit.

Good luck!

This is my hope and my thinking right now. We have1 month left, and one of those is Fall break. Even my top runners will just get in some maintenance work that week (these kids all travel over break, I doubt we have more than a smattering at practice.)

Backing off this last month, have one day of more R paced work but lower volume, maybe the fitness with show up over October.

Thanks for all the reasonable replies.

Yes, just cook the sheit out of those slow twerps. Charbroil on high.

I think the move to a progression run is a good idea.

Please come back and share some updates when you can! Good luck!

When I was in high school and we had a month roughly to state, my coach had us do a long run (8-10 miles) with 3 miles of progression in the last few miles, finishing at or just below tempo pace. Maybe try this.