Three hour long runs aren't avisable for pros. Why do you think that you should be doing them?.
The pros take much less time than the rest of us to complete the actual race too. (FWIW I’m slightly slower than OP and my long runs top out at 3 hours too. I acknowledge that you are a tremendously accomplished athlete and I am…well…not, but I think it is reasonable enough that somebody whose race entails 2:40 on their feet might run longer—time-wise—than someone who’s done in 2:10 or so.
3h long runs are perfectly ok provided you don't go too fast and you fuel enough the day before and during the run. If you are failing to recover from a 3h long run probably you are going too fast, not fueling enough, or your aerobic/metabolic capacity is not well developed, so you have to keep running long and slow do develop your mithocondria and slow twitch muscle fibers.
That long runs should top at 2.5hrs or any other random number is nonsense. It all depends on intensity, how fit you are and how fit you'd like to get. Principle of progression.
Jack Daniels argues that anything longer than 2 hours 30 minutes is not just wasting your time, but is doing more harm than good. He says anything longer increases risk of injury and prolonged fatigue. His argument is that it will limit your ability to have quality workouts and your time is better used elsewhere.
Feel free to disagree. In my experience he's spot on.
There's good reason the best runners aren't doing 3 hour long runs. Risk vs reward ratio gets absurdly out of proportion past 2.5 hours.
Totally agree. I can see one time on your feet kind of run in that 4-8 weeks out range. Basically a 3-flat marathon shouldn't be crazy hard for a 2:35 runner. But you plan for it the week before/week after. I don't get the point of 3 hours every other week. There should be plenty of long runs in that 30k-35k range w./ bouts @ marathon pace. You can make a 30k long run plenty challenging.
i don't have a strong opinion on this, but for those who argue the time on feet should be similar to how long it will take you to complete a marathon, is this how ultra marathoners train?
and im not talking about the "born to walk" ultra athletes. Im talking about the guys who run 50 or 100 miles very fast. do they need to complete long runs that are a similar duration to what those races will be?
There's good reason the best runners aren't doing 3 hour long runs. Risk vs reward ratio gets absurdly out of proportion past 2.5 hours.
Totally agree. I can see one time on your feet kind of run in that 4-8 weeks out range. Basically a 3-flat marathon shouldn't be crazy hard for a 2:35 runner. But you plan for it the week before/week after. I don't get the point of 3 hours every other week. There should be plenty of long runs in that 30k-35k range w./ bouts @ marathon pace. You can make a 30k long run plenty challenging.
im not a marathon guy, but this is kind of how I see it.
Are 3 hour long runs every other week considered advisable? It's been hard enough to recover from them. Want to know if that's just training. Why the hate?
If the issue is recovery, then that's the issue. Doesn't mean maybe stepping back from the 3-hour long run might be wise at this point because you're not recovering, but 3 hour long runs before a first marathon is not ridiculous or bad or weird or anything.
Instead, what I am reading in this follow up is you're recovery is going poorly. So, maybe for you, a 3 hour long run may not be working at this point. But, it also means you likely need to work on your recovery, too.
This begins with proper fueling. Fueling before the run, during, and after. It also includes making sure you get enough sleep—especially deep sleep. If you're not recovering well from a long run then that's more the issue than the long run itself (although it may indicate the long run is too long for you right now, it also very much reads like your recovery game needs a lot of work).
Regardless, the little bit of information you've provided is not enough to diagnose your issues, or provide you a detailed, individualized training plan . . . except in the minds of many LetsRun folks, I reckon.
Here's my recommendations:
1. Look into ways to improve your recovery. Fueling before, during, and after; better sleep; other recovery tools.
2. Talk to your coach about how difficult your recovery is, and whether there may be a better way to get the same benefits of the run. (Do you know what the purpose is? Is it aerobic fitness? Strength? Mental toughness? What?)
3. Don't seek training plans (or advice, so feel free to ignore this, too!) on LetsRun.
You dont get a "3hr aerobic stimulus" your body is an organism not a machine. You run long enough to tire your body, it releases the hormones to adapt aerobically. After 2.5hrs you've got the stimulus. Going further is will only take longer to recover from before you adapt.
Train for a 1500/mile like a real man and you'll avoid all of this nonsense. You'll have more fun, you'll look better, you won't be shuffling for three fckin hours straight and you'll avoid the hordes of unwashed hobbyjoggers on race day. 3 hour long run? What are you, unemployed?
Because what's more motivating than going to a junior high school track on a muggy Wednesday evening to battle three skinny male virgins, a 70-year-old race walker, two chubby moms, and an arrogant 38-year-old man desperate to recapture some faded glory at the typical all-comers track meet mile?
Train for a 1500/mile like a real man and you'll avoid all of this nonsense. You'll have more fun, you'll look better, you won't be shuffling for three fckin hours straight and you'll avoid the hordes of unwashed hobbyjoggers on race day. 3 hour long run? What are you, unemployed?
Because what's more motivating than going to a junior high school track on a muggy Wednesday evening to battle three skinny male virgins, a 70-year-old race walker, two chubby moms, and an arrogant 38-year-old man desperate to recapture some faded glory at the typical all-comers track meet mile?
Jack Daniels argues that anything longer than 2 hours 30 minutes is not just wasting your time, but is doing more harm than good. He says anything longer increases risk of injury and prolonged fatigue. His argument is that it will limit your ability to have quality workouts and your time is better used elsewhere.
Feel free to disagree. In my experience he's spot on.
Daniels spent his decades working with D3 college track runners and other sub-elites. Those runners were logging high volume the rest of the week, and in 2.5 hours they could cover the distance needed in a long run to get ready for a marathon. His guidelines for slower hobbyjoggers are literally just a semi-educated guess. He's never actually worked directly with them, but writing to that audience makes him and his publisher more money so he fudges.
Daniels' marathon training plans are only useful for 3:10 or faster runners. Slower than that, I wouldn't even use his prescribed M pace, which is closer to HM or LT pace for a lot of those runners. His pace scale breaks down at slower than 3:10, which makes sense because he never works directly with any runners who are slower than that.
You dont get a "3hr aerobic stimulus" your body is an organism not a machine. You run long enough to tire your body, it releases the hormones to adapt aerobically. After 2.5hrs you've got the stimulus. Going further is will only take longer to recover from before you adapt.
And if someone needs 3:30-4:00 to run a marathon, that 2.5 hour run will leave their body nowhere close to ready to handle the race because the skeletal/muscular stimulation was far less than they needed.
It may be silly, but Galloway's run walk might be better for the long run if running 2 hours 31 minutes or longer will seriously cause your tendons and legs to explode or similar. Or you could advocate that no marathon should ever allow someone slower than 3:00 to ever run a marathon... which would cost them all a lot of money for no valid reason, so good luck convincing them.
Because what's more motivating than going to a junior high school track on a muggy Wednesday evening to battle three skinny male virgins, a 70-year-old race walker, two chubby moms, and an arrogant 38-year-old man desperate to recapture some faded glory at the typical all-comers track meet mile?
Those sound like professional athletes compared to the average 5 hour marathoner. That 70 year old geezer can probably run a faster 100 than you lol.
I think our difference of opinion comes down to how specific training needs to be. Youre suggesting you need to do the duration to teach your body to cope with the duration. I think of it more that you nudge the body in the direction you want it to adapt.
Would i be right if i suggested you believe the training effect happens in the training? Rather than you adapt after you recover?
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