Caffeine also boosts performance according to research. Lots of people take energy drinks before races. Let’s also ban carbo-loading before marathons. If it’s just baking soda no big deal.
I realize that caffeine (within certain limits) is officially allowed for running events. Other than that legal technicality, can you explain why, from an ethical perspective, it's apparently so obvious that it's okay to gobble caffeine pills before a race, but not other stimulants? And the same with baking soda - why's it okay to intentionally manipulate your body chemistry with baking soda to improve your performance, but not okay to use certain other drugs?
I'm not even necessarily against these substances myself. Caffeine, for instance, is a standard part of the diet for most people. It's inevitable that, knowing that it aids performance, we would try to time our caffeine intake to optimize its benefit (and maybe take a little more of it than we would under other circumstances). Downing gobs of baking soda, though, seems to be another rung up the Ladder of Dubiousness - perhaps because it's something I would never do under normal circumstances, whereas drinking a cup of coffee is commonplace. Either way, I think it's important to actually think these things through, rather than just pointing out that some substances are easily available and therefore they must be fine.
I'd also add that the pacing for the 800m at the elite level has improved. Post Rudisha I'd frequently see the rabbits going sub-50 on the first lap and, as a result, a lot of positive splits. Now, it seems like most elites are going out a second or so slower on the first lap and trying to run a negative split which is probably a better race pattern.
neg split 800s were a thing before that, but athletes were running like 144.
That said, take the shoes, track and sodium-bicarb ingestion, and it's not surprising so many guys are suddenly running 1:41.xx
Okay, but the shoes, fast tracks, and Maurten bi-carb have all been around for the last 2-3 years. It was only in 2024 that we saw a big drop in the top 800m times. What changed in 2024 vs 2022 or 2023?
Maurten wasn't around for every athlete until this year or late last year I believe, certain athletes were paid to test it. Marco Arop said he only started using it between when he got destroyed whilst running 1:42.8 at Monaco and the Olympics.
Alright. So I'm going to start carrying a turkey baster kissed with astroglide to shoot bicarbonate gel between my legs before a race; anything else, doc?
I'd also add that the pacing for the 800m at the elite level has improved. Post Rudisha I'd frequently see the rabbits going sub-50 on the first lap and, as a result, a lot of positive splits. Now, it seems like most elites are going out a second or so slower on the first lap and trying to run a negative split which is probably a better race pattern.
Um, no:
1. Most elites are not running slower than 50.0 in these 1:41 races.
2. This would not be a better race pattern. Almost all elite PRs are run with positive splits.
I've been curious about the Maurten bicarb. I've listened to a runner and a cyclist talk about how the took it and felt they performed amazingly in their session following it. However the cyclist did wonder if it was a placebo affect (mindset that he took it) or the bicarb itself.
I've been curious about the Maurten bicarb. I've listened to a runner and a cyclist talk about how the took it and felt they performed amazingly in their session following it. However the cyclist did wonder if it was a placebo affect (mindset that he took it) or the bicarb itself.
I’ve tried it twice as a middle-aged hobby jogger. First time, I was up 24 hours after taking it but had a great 10 mi run that day.
Second time, I nearly crapped my pants before running, and then got 3rd in my age group in a pretty large 5k.
Can everyone just chill the fudge out on Maurten's product. Athletes were taking bicarbonate before this product and will take it in other forms other than this product.
There is nothing illegal or anywhere near considered doping about eating something alkaline and causing your blood ph to be slightly higher to combat hydrogen ions.
All the Maurten product does is slightly delay or prevent sh1tting your pants by covering it in gelatin to buy your gut 30-60 minutes to pass it beyond your stomach acid and into the small intestine.
Thats it. Fewer 800m/1500m guys running through the mix zone to go crap their guts out in the locker room.
That is not the prime reason why it is coated in gelatin. If you take sodium bicarbonate directly , which by the way people have tried for years, it doesn't do anything except get neutralised by the stomach acid
HCl + NaHCO3 → NaCl + H2CO3, -->
the carbonic acid, CO3+ neutralises to CO3+-->CO2 +H20 , the CO2 will be expelled as burps, farts and a runny stomach, plus digestive problems. Further CO2 and CO3+ entering the blood will be exhaled and neutralised respectively.
So short answer this is why taking spoonfulls of bicarb of soda does not work.
Putting it in gels will bypass the stomach acid and be absorbed straight into blood via upper intestine, increase blood pH (availability of H+) and neutralise the lactic acid, increasing lactate
The dosage and method of delivery promoted commercially is pretty much copied straight from meta analyses of research on this. You could do a better home brew quite easily.
Close, but not quite. Lactate is the form that exists in your body, not lactic acid. During high intensity exercise, the rate at which you're breaking down glucose/glycogen (everyone remember high school biology? this is the glycolysis pathway) exceeds the rate at which you can take the end product (pyruvate) and transport it into the mitochondria to produce energy aerobically. So we have a side-reaction that turns this pyruvate into lactate and a H+, not lactic acid. This is because at physiological pH (i.e., your body's natural state), lactic acid dissociates to lactate (which can be used as a fuel) and H+, which can be exported out of the muscle. It is the build up of H+ and other metabolites like inorganic phosphate (Pi) that are the cause of fatigue, not lactate. Sodium bicarb is aimed at targeting the rise in H+ in the blood (a rise in H+ = a drop in pH as it makes things more acidic). This is in contrast to supplements like beta alanine which tries to limit the build up of H+ in the muscle itself.
As others have noted, sodium bicarb has been around for decades, beyond simply mixing baking soda in water and trying to drink it. There are pill forms as well as enteric coated capsules that are protected in the stomach to limit GI issues. There is nothing more special about Maurten versus those pills other than marketing (and a heavily inflated price). And there have been questions raised previously about how effective their hydrogel actually is anyways. My guess is you'd get similar effects with the other forms of bicarb, at much lower price point.
1. Most elites are not running slower than 50.0 in these 1:41 races.
2. This would not be a better race pattern. Almost all elite PRs are run with positive splits.
Come on. Have you literally ever raced an 800?
Every pro 800 is basically a dash through 200
Rudisha running 24.8, 25.2, 25.0, 25.5 could have been feasible in my opinion
You might want to modify your thinking - things have changed!
I don't know how to link a post from a different thread, so I just copied and pasted this post from JRinaldi "Peter Bol's coach" in the current "11 out of 20 top 800 times..." thread:
The biggest difference I've noticed with the recent sub 1:42s is in the first lap of the race, even the first 200m. Looking at the data of all the 27 sub 1:42's, the average first 200m of the recent races is 0.4 slower (24.44 vs 24.04) and the first laps is similarly slower (50.0 vs 49.3). This is producing less deviation between each 200m split with Hopple's 1:41.67 only having an average deviation of 0.25 (8 of the 10 smallest AVEDEV have come from 2024). Rudisha's 1:40.91 WR has an AVEDEV of 0.975 Examples: Hopple 24.9, 25.6, 25.4, 25.7 for 1:41.67 (0.25) Rudisha 23.5, 25.8, 25.0, 26.6 for 1:40.91 (0.975) Wanyonyi 24.5, 25.5, 25.4, 25.7 for 1:41.11 (0.3875) So it can't just be the shoes as they wouldn't be 'slowing' the athletes down in the first 200, nor could it be the track. Bicarb helps in the last 200 and that may explain them holding the pace better than they have in the past, or maybe it is just as simple as 'even paced' running produces the best results over 800m rather than the old theory of +2 sec between first and last laps. Or..... maybe I just spend too much time looking at data :)
Close, but not quite. Lactate is the form that exists in your body, not lactic acid. During high intensity exercise, the rate at which you're breaking down glucose/glycogen (everyone remember high school biology? this is the glycolysis pathway) exceeds the rate at which you can take the end product (pyruvate) and transport it into the mitochondria to produce energy aerobically. So we have a side-reaction that turns this pyruvate into lactate and a H+, not lactic acid. This is because at physiological pH (i.e., your body's natural state), lactic acid dissociates to lactate (which can be used as a fuel) and H+, which can be exported out of the muscle. It is the build up of H+ and other metabolites like inorganic phosphate (Pi) that are the cause of fatigue, not lactate. Sodium bicarb is aimed at targeting the rise in H+ in the blood (a rise in H+ = a drop in pH as it makes things more acidic). This is in contrast to supplements like beta alanine which tries to limit the build up of H+ in the muscle itself.
As others have noted, sodium bicarb has been around for decades, beyond simply mixing baking soda in water and trying to drink it. There are pill forms as well as enteric coated capsules that are protected in the stomach to limit GI issues. There is nothing more special about Maurten versus those pills other than marketing (and a heavily inflated price). And there have been questions raised previously about how effective their hydrogel actually is anyways. My guess is you'd get similar effects with the other forms of bicarb, at much lower price point.
You are not wrong, but splitting hairs over the location of excess H+ is. Lactate is the organic anion (conjugate base ) of lactic. If you cannot shuttle that excess H+ away with your natural bicarb, then your anaerobic pathway is limited. Lactate and lactic acid are used synonymously but there is the H+ difference dependent on pH. The lactate form is the one that is reirculated as energy source, so low pH, excess lactic form limits that.
On another note, I might experiment with making some sugar lollies, try to get the dosage and amount of lolly 'cover' right...might come in handy at my age LoL
Caffeine also boosts performance according to research. Lots of people take energy drinks before races. Let’s also ban carbo-loading before marathons. If it’s just baking soda no big deal.
I realize that caffeine (within certain limits) is officially allowed for running events. Other than that legal technicality, can you explain why, from an ethical perspective, it's apparently so obvious that it's okay to gobble caffeine pills before a race, but not other stimulants? And the same with baking soda - why's it okay to intentionally manipulate your body chemistry with baking soda to improve your performance, but not okay to use certain other drugs?
I'm not even necessarily against these substances myself. Caffeine, for instance, is a standard part of the diet for most people. It's inevitable that, knowing that it aids performance, we would try to time our caffeine intake to optimize its benefit (and maybe take a little more of it than we would under other circumstances). Downing gobs of baking soda, though, seems to be another rung up the Ladder of Dubiousness - perhaps because it's something I would never do under normal circumstances, whereas drinking a cup of coffee is commonplace. Either way, I think it's important to actually think these things through, rather than just pointing out that some substances are easily available and therefore they must be fine.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.