I'll take Cram over any keyboard jockey on Letsrun. His observation about Jakob's issue with speed is exactly on point (and was argued in an earlier thread) but most commenters don't understand what he is saying.
Jakob lost both WC 1500 meters by .25 seconds and is about a second off of the 1500m record. What change in training will allow him to find the 1 second needed to set WRs in the 1500m/mile and to win in the Olympic and WC 1500m championships?
All of the Brits from his era were 800/1500m guys so what insight would Cram have for 1500/5000m training?
Cram knows what it takes to run the 1500. I think he's right, that beating the wr for the event is a speed issue for Jakob. He is probably already at his speed limit for the event, which means to try to run faster puts him sooner into oxygen debt.
I'll take Cram over any keyboard jockey on Letsrun. His observation about Jakob's issue with speed is exactly on point (and was argued in an earlier thread) but most commenters don't understand what he is saying.
Wow!! Actually going to agree with Army again. Cram has his bias toward the 800/1500 type of runner. But it seems rather odd that there are so few of them these days (Wightman perhaps), as the majority (Ingebrigtsen, Nordas, Kerr, Nuguse) are clearly more on the 1500/3k/5k side these days. It is almost as if the 800m doesn't matter anymore for the 1500m runner, and that is perplexing. I wonder where the 1.42/3.25 guy is? Certainly having a good aerobic (3k/5k) capacity is good, but not to the exclusion of even a half-decent 800 (which is sub1.44 if guys like Coe and Cram - and I think Ovett if he bothered to try and run a fast 800) that guys were running 40+ years ago, which only the 800m specialists are doing now. Seems like something is missing if all these guys (not talking about doping either) are running super-fast 3k/5k compared to 40 years ago, but the 800m for 1500m runners is stagnant.
I don't think Cram is necessarily biased towards 800/1500 guys; he recognises that to take the wr requires a given level of speed that Jakob may not have, in the way that runners like Komen and Bekele didn't have, for all their fantastic qualities of endurance (which Jakob shares).
Jakob lost both WC 1500 meters by .25 seconds and is about a second off of the 1500m record. What change in training will allow him to find the 1 second needed to set WRs in the 1500m/mile and to win in the Olympic and WC 1500m championships?
All of the Brits from his era were 800/1500m guys so what insight would Cram have for 1500/5000m training?
Cram knows what it takes to run the 1500. I think he's right, that beating the wr for the event is a speed issue for Jakob. He is probably already at his speed limit for the event, which means to try to run faster puts him sooner into oxygen debt.
We’re talk talking about just 1 second. What change in training would accomplish that goal? If he did find that second, how much slower would he run the 5000m?
I'll take Cram over any keyboard jockey on Letsrun. His observation about Jakob's issue with speed is exactly on point (and was argued in an earlier thread) but most commenters don't understand what he is saying.
Jakob lost both WC 1500 meters by .25 seconds and is about a second off of the 1500m record. What change in training will allow him to find the 1 second needed to set WRs in the 1500m/mile and to win in the Olympic and WC 1500m championships?
All of the Brits from his era were 800/1500m guys so what insight would Cram have for 1500/5000m training?
Cram's argument is that Jakob has maxed out everything he can from his strength/threshold based approach. There's nothing more to be gained by battering that part of his physiology, at least not for his 1500 times. Cram thinks any improvement will come from working on raw speed, and that's something Jakob himself has acknowledged he hasn't worked on enough. You can disagree with Cram and other old-timers but they shouldn't be dismissed, especially as the top guys from that era ran times from 800 to the mile that would still win medals today.
Jakob lost both WC 1500 meters by .25 seconds and is about a second off of the 1500m record. What change in training will allow him to find the 1 second needed to set WRs in the 1500m/mile and to win in the Olympic and WC 1500m championships?
All of the Brits from his era were 800/1500m guys so what insight would Cram have for 1500/5000m training?
Cram's argument is that Jakob has maxed out everything he can from his strength/threshold based approach. There's nothing more to be gained by battering that part of his physiology, at least not for his 1500 times. Cram thinks any improvement will come from working on raw speed, and that's something Jakob himself has acknowledged he hasn't worked on enough. You can disagree with Cram and other old-timers but they shouldn't be dismissed, especially as the top guys from that era ran times from 800 to the mile that would still win medals today.
He’ll never be an 800/1500m runner. If he had run .5 seconds faster and won those 2 WC 1500m, would we even be discussing his raw speed? He needs every bit of his strength to be at his best at either at both 1500m and 5000m.
And he shouldn't. 7:54 and 8:00 are two completely different worlds, even if 1 was indoor and the other outdoor. 6 seconds at that pace is not close.
It baffles me that you'd acknowledge that one was indoor and one was outdoor and then come to a conclusion that totally ignores that fact. Given that most indoor records are apparently 1-4% slower than outdoor, even if you throw 1% Kerr's way, that's almost 5 seconds. Suddenly that 6 seconds seems a little less significant. Jakob's indoor 1500m WR is fully 2% slower than outdoors for example.
You may be right but pacemaking nowadays is much better than in the past. If he can go through 800 in 1:50.5 exactly lets say, and then closes at the same speed he did in Silesia, he will be extremely close. Obviously you don’t think he can do this since it’s faster than 1:51.5 and perhaps beyond his limit. But I believe he can do it with better endurance, we will see.
Too focused on the 5000: Has only run 4 5000’s the last 3 years. His age may be catching up with his logical decline.
Jakob ran close to Cram’s mile PB and kept on going for another lap. Probably could have gone faster if he had a better peak going into worlds. Not sure why he thinks Jakob needs more speed. He is only a few tenths of a second per lap off of the 1500, and even less for the mile.
Steve Cram: 1:42.88 in some ancient sandles Jakob Ing: 1:46.44 in dragonfly's
Jakob lost both WC 1500 meters by .25 seconds and is about a second off of the 1500m record. What change in training will allow him to find the 1 second needed to set WRs in the 1500m/mile and to win in the Olympic and WC 1500m championships?
All of the Brits from his era were 800/1500m guys so what insight would Cram have for 1500/5000m training?
Cram's argument is that Jakob has maxed out everything he can from his strength/threshold based approach. There's nothing more to be gained by battering that part of his physiology, at least not for his 1500 times. Cram thinks any improvement will come from working on raw speed, and that's something Jakob himself has acknowledged he hasn't worked on enough. You can disagree with Cram and other old-timers but they shouldn't be dismissed, especially as the top guys from that era ran times from 800 to the mile that would still win medals today.
Perhaps, but lets not pretend that his HM ability cannot be bettered over time. His entire base training is just improving his Half Marathon capabilities. Aerobic development can be improved for many years. Will he have the same half marathon ability at 23 as compared to when he is 26, 30? And if so, can these improvements, while keeping the same level of 800 speed, allow him to go under 3:26 one day? Maybe, it all depends on his consistency I believe.
And he shouldn't. 7:54 and 8:00 are two completely different worlds, even if 1 was indoor and the other outdoor. 6 seconds at that pace is not close.
It baffles me that you'd acknowledge that one was indoor and one was outdoor and then come to a conclusion that totally ignores that fact. Given that most indoor records are apparently 1-4% slower than outdoor, even if you throw 1% Kerr's way, that's almost 5 seconds. Suddenly that 6 seconds seems a little less significant. Jakob's indoor 1500m WR is fully 2% slower than outdoors for example.
The NCAA absolute records for the mile, 3000m and 5000m, for both men and woman, were set indoors. The new indoor tracks might be even faster than running outdoors.
Ingebrigtsen’s indoor 1500m record was set before the track at the Utilita Arena Birmingham, built in 1991, was replaced with a state of the art, mondo track.
Jakob ran close to Cram’s mile PB and kept on going for another lap. Probably could have gone faster if he had a better peak going into worlds. Not sure why he thinks Jakob needs more speed. He is only a few tenths of a second per lap off of the 1500, and even less for the mile.
Steve Cram: 1:42.88 in some ancient sandles Jakob Ing: 1:46.44 in dragonfly's
Jakob has run like 3 800’s in the last 4 years. It’s obvious he is never going to peak for that event considering most of the year he is only focused on one thing, improving his anaerobic threshold. What was Cram’s training like?
Cram's argument is that Jakob has maxed out everything he can from his strength/threshold based approach. There's nothing more to be gained by battering that part of his physiology, at least not for his 1500 times. Cram thinks any improvement will come from working on raw speed, and that's something Jakob himself has acknowledged he hasn't worked on enough. You can disagree with Cram and other old-timers but they shouldn't be dismissed, especially as the top guys from that era ran times from 800 to the mile that would still win medals today.
Perhaps, but let’s not pretend that his HM ability cannot be bettered over time. His entire base training is just improving his Half Marathon capabilities. Aerobic development can be improved for many years. Will he have the same half marathon ability at 23 as compared to when he is 26, 30? And if so, can these improvements, while keeping the same level of 800 speed, allow him to go under 3:26 one day? Maybe, it all depends on his consistency I believe.
He’s always going to better at 1500/5000m, so he’s never going to capable of setting a WR in the HM. The most likely scenario is that he retires without ever leaving the track.
Perhaps, but let’s not pretend that his HM ability cannot be bettered over time. His entire base training is just improving his Half Marathon capabilities. Aerobic development can be improved for many years. Will he have the same half marathon ability at 23 as compared to when he is 26, 30? And if so, can these improvements, while keeping the same level of 800 speed, allow him to go under 3:26 one day? Maybe, it all depends on his consistency I believe.
He’s always going to better at 1500/5000m, so he’s never going to capable of setting a WR in the HM. The most likely scenario is that he retires without ever leaving the track.
Maybe not a WR in the HM, but I don’t see why he can’t run a fast time or atleast better his hypothetical capabilities. His training is literally about improving his threshold speed and capacity, he has to atleast improve in this event as long as he is consistent.
You may be right but pacemaking nowadays is much better than in the past. If he can go through 800 in 1:50.5 exactly lets say, and then closes at the same speed he did in Silesia, he will be extremely close. Obviously you don’t think he can do this since it’s faster than 1:51.5 and perhaps beyond his limit. But I believe he can do it with better endurance, we will see.
I don't think he can acquire more speed than he has and I tend to think he is at his endurance limits for that distance because of that speed limitation. He has more room to improve over the 5k.
It baffles me that you'd acknowledge that one was indoor and one was outdoor and then come to a conclusion that totally ignores that fact. Given that most indoor records are apparently 1-4% slower than outdoor, even if you throw 1% Kerr's way, that's almost 5 seconds. Suddenly that 6 seconds seems a little less significant. Jakob's indoor 1500m WR is fully 2% slower than outdoors for example.
The NCAA absolute records for the mile, 3000m and 5000m, for both men and woman, were set indoors. The new indoor tracks might be even faster than running outdoors.
Ingebrigtsen’s indoor 1500m record was set before the track at the Utilita Arena Birmingham, built in 1991, was replaced with a state of the art, mondo track.
I don't know much about the NCAA but there seems to be more 'news' about their indoor races-are they higher profile? And anyway high quality outdoor mile and 3000m races are pretty rare in general. I'd say my point still stands whilst all the real records are 1-4% slower.
Why is there so much focus on breaking world records? All I care about is the winner of the race going on at the time. I don't care if it's fast or slow if you beat everyone you're against.
He’s always going to better at 1500/5000m, so he’s never going to capable of setting a WR in the HM. The most likely scenario is that he retires without ever leaving the track.
Maybe not a WR in the HM, but I don’t see why he can’t run a fast time or atleast better his hypothetical capabilities. His training is literally about improving his threshold speed and capacity, he has to atleast improve in this event as long as he is consistent.
He could run a HM, but 1500/5000m guys rarely run one or the marathon, or even a 10000m. Off of the top of my head, Rod Dixon was the only 1500m medal winner to run a serious marathon.
For guys successful on track, the HM doesn’t have all that much prestige.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.