The discussion is about if a middle distance runner can improve significantly past their mid-20s. Holmes’ 800PR was at age 25, and she only approve her 1500m time by .2 seconds from ages 27 to 34.
Maybe Magheean is an outlier, but I doubt if there are plenty of examples when it comes to middle distance running.
Again, you are not making sense. You initially discussed how medals were more difficult to win at age 30+ for middle distance runners, and when a double Olympic gold medallist in the 800m and 1500m at age 34 was pointed out to you, you changed your argument to being about pbs.
Which is it? pbs or gold medals? How many "outliers" do you need pointed out to you before you admit that they are simply members of the competitive field, often athletes who have had injuries earlier on and become physically stronger, or not maximised their coaching, diet or recovery?
I've by now means researched this thoroughly, but just from those top athletes who spring to mind, Katie Snowden who will be 30 next year ran her 1500m pb of 3.56 last year. Melissa Courtney ran her 1500m of 3.58 last year at age 30. Alex Bell ran her 800m pb of 1.57 at age 29. 800m runner Natoya Goule ran better than ever before last year at the age of 32. Catriona Bisset made her breakthrough performances last year at age 29 in the 800m. Going back 10 years, Helen Clitheroe won European 3000m indoor gold at age 36 and raced even better at the Indoor Worlds a year later compared to her form when a younger athlete. The finalists in their early twenties are the outliers!
It’s American athletes who burn out in their mid or late twenties after focussing too heavily on long distance too young who are the real outliers.
That’s not what I said at all. The current discussion is in response to my comment that Muir is unlikely to improve significantly at age 30.
Here is the all-time 1500m list which are all men that trained hard from day 1, and none of them are Americans:
El G 3:26 at age 24
Lagat. 3:26.3 at age 26
Kiprop 3:26.7 at age 26
Jakob. 3:27.6 at age 22
Morceli 3:27.4 at age 25
Kiplagat. 3:27.6 at age 25
Ngeny. 3:28.1. at age 22
Cheruiyot 3:28.3. at age 25
Mahloufi. 3:28.8 at age 27
Katir 3:28.8. at age 23
We don’t know the details of the athletes you listed, and maybe some were hindered by injuries or lack of motivation, earlier in their careers.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't she working F/T as a vet in her early professional career? Could that be the reason for a lower mileage higher intensity type program for her due to time constraints?
I’m sure she still had aerobic blocks. Whatever they did I still think Andy Young can hold his head high with the end results. I for one don’t believe her achievements would be any greater if she followed the Lydiard or Dancan system.
They definitely did have aerobic blocks, but from what you can discern from the interview is that even when training in high altitude (she does South Africa), they were doing tempo work/fast distance runs as opposed to the garden variety threshold stuff. If I remember correctly, Rupp when he switched to Mike Smith also remarked that he never did as long stuff with as short a recovery under Alberto (my read on this was more 2-3K intervals with short rests, and didn't rule out shorter intervals with Alberto pre-marathon training). This seems more extreme as it even rules out 400s-1200s on the track with short rests which is the basis of a lot of threshold training now.
I never know what anyone is talking about when they say "threshold training." You need to drill down a bit to figure out what they're talking about.
If it's Daniels-style LT running, tons of elite athletes don't do it. Yeah, some people seem to thrive on it, but many people prefer to do 10k-paced reps with short rest, which ends up being a similar stimulus.
Again, you are not making sense. You initially discussed how medals were more difficult to win at age 30+ for middle distance runners, and when a double Olympic gold medallist in the 800m and 1500m at age 34 was pointed out to you, you changed your argument to being about pbs.
Which is it? pbs or gold medals? How many "outliers" do you need pointed out to you before you admit that they are simply members of the competitive field, often athletes who have had injuries earlier on and become physically stronger, or not maximised their coaching, diet or recovery?
I've by now means researched this thoroughly, but just from those top athletes who spring to mind, Katie Snowden who will be 30 next year ran her 1500m pb of 3.56 last year. Melissa Courtney ran her 1500m of 3.58 last year at age 30. Alex Bell ran her 800m pb of 1.57 at age 29. 800m runner Natoya Goule ran better than ever before last year at the age of 32. Catriona Bisset made her breakthrough performances last year at age 29 in the 800m. Going back 10 years, Helen Clitheroe won European 3000m indoor gold at age 36 and raced even better at the Indoor Worlds a year later compared to her form when a younger athlete. The finalists in their early twenties are the outliers!
It’s American athletes who burn out in their mid or late twenties after focussing too heavily on long distance too young who are the real outliers.
That’s not what I said at all. The current discussion is in response to my comment that Muir is unlikely to improve significantly at age 30.
Here is the all-time 1500m list which are all men that trained hard from day 1, and none of them are Americans:
El G 3:26 at age 24
Lagat. 3:26.3 at age 26
Kiprop 3:26.7 at age 26
Jakob. 3:27.6 at age 22
Morceli 3:27.4 at age 25
Kiplagat. 3:27.6 at age 25
Ngeny. 3:28.1. at age 22
Cheruiyot 3:28.3. at age 25
Mahloufi. 3:28.8 at age 27
Katir 3:28.8. at age 23
We don’t know the details of the athletes you listed, and maybe some were hindered by injuries or lack of motivation, earlier in their careers.
You're determined to argue this point, aren't you? So now, you are using male athletes to illustrate why you think female middle athletes must be in their early twenties to be at their best.
I'm not sure who "we" refers to, but whatever system educated you failed to provide you with the ability to carry out basic research. All of the athletes I listed except Magheean (whose progression is well known) and Goule (ditto) have their entire performances listed on the website Power of Ten. Yes, some countries actually have all of the performances of their nationally ranked athletes listed in the public domain, where they can be easily accessed.
That’s not what I said at all. The current discussion is in response to my comment that Muir is unlikely to improve significantly at age 30.
Here is the all-time 1500m list which are all men that trained hard from day 1, and none of them are Americans:
El G 3:26 at age 24
Lagat. 3:26.3 at age 26
Kiprop 3:26.7 at age 26
Jakob. 3:27.6 at age 22
Morceli 3:27.4 at age 25
Kiplagat. 3:27.6 at age 25
Ngeny. 3:28.1. at age 22
Cheruiyot 3:28.3. at age 25
Mahloufi. 3:28.8 at age 27
Katir 3:28.8. at age 23
We don’t know the details of the athletes you listed, and maybe some were hindered by injuries or lack of motivation, earlier in their careers.
You're determined to argue this point, aren't you? So now, you are using male athletes to illustrate why you think female middle athletes must be in their early twenties to be at their best.
I'm not sure who "we" refers to, but whatever system educated you failed to provide you with the ability to carry out basic research. All of the athletes I listed except Magheean (whose progression is well known) and Goule (ditto) have their entire performances listed on the website Power of Ten. Yes, some countries actually have all of the performances of their nationally ranked athletes listed in the public domain, where they can be easily accessed.
You’re determined to believe Muir can improve 3-4 seconds this year. What’s wrong with using results from World Athletics?
You're determined to argue this point, aren't you? So now, you are using male athletes to illustrate why you think female middle athletes must be in their early twenties to be at their best.
I'm not sure who "we" refers to, but whatever system educated you failed to provide you with the ability to carry out basic research. All of the athletes I listed except Magheean (whose progression is well known) and Goule (ditto) have their entire performances listed on the website Power of Ten. Yes, some countries actually have all of the performances of their nationally ranked athletes listed in the public domain, where they can be easily accessed.
You’re determined to believe Muir can improve 3-4 seconds this year. What’s wrong with using results from World Athletics?
You're quite blatantly telling lies now. I do believe that Muir can be a major medal contender and improve her pb. You invented the little bit about 3 - 4 seconds.
World Athletics does not list every single race that an athlete has done in their career. You already claimed earlier that "we" didn't know the details of athletes' progression, however for those athletes listed on PowerOfTen, it is easily discovered. Why don't you go away and do some basic research to fill in the gaps in your knowledge? You're going to get another shock when you read about Linden Hall.
This is very amusing. You're American, aren't you? Another sterling example of the quality of their education system.
That doesn't even make sense. You suggest Kipyegon was already old for a middle distance runner in Tokyo but was "doing so well" at middle distance, she decided to keep going for a further 3 years.
How to say you're obsessed with very young girls without saying you're obsessed with very young girls...
Its about how well you race, not how old you are. There are plenty of examples of 30 + successful female middle distance athletes, and its obviously a very individual thing. Kelly Holmes (800m and 1500m Olympic gold at 34) and more recently the much improved Ciara Magheean, who has done all her pbs aged 30 and 31. There are plenty of other examples. Some athletes are best in their mid twenties, others aren't. American runners do seem to flare out early, I'll give you that...
The discussion is about if a middle distance runner can improve significantly past their mid-20s. Holmes’ 800PR was at age 25, and she only approve her 1500m time by .2 seconds from ages 27 to 34.
Maybe Magheean is an outlier, but I doubt if there are plenty of examples when it comes to middle distance running.
Kelly Holmes set her 1500m pb at the age of 34 at the Olympic Games that year. She got very close to her 800m pb at the same Olympics.
What also improves with age is of course racecraft, not just pbs. pbs don't win championships.
You claim that you are doubtful that there are plenty of examples. I have given you 9 examples off the top of my head (Holmes, Courtney-Bryant, Goule, Bisset, Magheean, Snowden, Clitheroe, Bell and Hall), most of them current athletes. I don't know how many constitutes "plenty" in your world, but 9 would be considered "plenty" in most worlds.
I never know what anyone is talking about when they say "threshold training." You need to drill down a bit to figure out what they're talking about.
If it's Daniels-style LT running, tons of elite athletes don't do it. Yeah, some people seem to thrive on it, but many people prefer to do 10k-paced reps with short rest, which ends up being a similar stimulus.
Sure, Chavez could have inquired further about workout specifics (or "secrets" as he called them), but it's early days. Vernon and Muir may be tweaking or experimenting with a mix of protocols. Let 'em cook.
Laura Muir, the radiant Olympic silver medalist, illuminates the 116th Millrose Games with her return to defend the NYRR Wanamaker Mile title. Her brilliance shines like a solar beacon.
Kelly Holmes set her 1500m pb at the age of 34 at the Olympic Games that year. She got very close to her 800m pb at the same Olympics.
What also improves with age is of course racecraft, not just pbs. pbs don't win championships.
You claim that you are doubtful that there are plenty of examples. I have given you 9 examples off the top of my head (Holmes, Courtney-Bryant, Goule, Bisset, Magheean, Snowden, Clitheroe, Bell and Hall), most of them current athletes. I don't know how many constitutes "plenty" in your world, but 9 would be considered "plenty" in most worlds.
I'd further suggest you could reverse the point '4:20 is not that fast' made at the bottom of #21 about how "maybe some were hindered by injuries or lack of motivation" to apply to these 30 year olds. When athletes are over the hill by 30 invariably they've either: accumulated notable injuries; lost some motivation; or are just genetically unlucky. Physiologically there's little reason for it.
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