Her manager was also the manager for the men's 10k record holder from Valencia, Rhonex Kipruto. He's also got connections with other banned athletes. This is easily a "where there's smoke there's fire" situation.
right, but if you are managing (not coaching?) a bunch of kenyans, chances are many of them doped before meeting you, or will dope without your knowledge whilst under your tutelage. because they are kenyan and that's what kenyans do, they take drugs to improve performance without thinking too much of it.
it's an inevitably if you manage kenyan athletes that there will be many dopers amongst them. so if you don't want to be associated with doping, you mustn't manage kenyans.
The fact that her coach has openly invited AIU scrutiny of his athletes is a major point in her favour. Can you imagine Jerry Schumacher allowing his athletes to take part in AIU research? Let alone actually asking for them to take part? A coach whose athletes are doping wouldn't invite scrutiny
These sort of breakthroughs tend to produce plenty of cynicism. There are four main factors that, taken in some combination, could reasonably explain a performance like Ngetich's 28:46, and three of them are pretty cynical. Option 1: The course had to be short. Option 2: Shoe technology has rendered times and records meaningless. Option 3: Anyone who runs that fast must be doping. Option 4: She's a generational talent. None of the first three responses is entirely unjustified, but let's get to them in a minute. When we try to make sense of a time we've never seen before, sometimes we forget there is a living, breathing person at the center of it. That's a source of frustration for Ngetich's agent, Davor Savija of Ikaika Sports, who has long believed in the greatness of Ngetich and says context is often missing from these discussions. Ask Savija about 28:46, and he is unequivocal: Ngetich is a top, top talent who is thriving now that she finally has the training environment in which to succeed. "This is a generational talent that is here to stay," Savija told LetsRun on Tuesday. "...This is some kind of Faith Kipyegon in the making."
Which of the explanation(s) do you find most convincing?
Why everyone are skipping one very important option, MALE PACERS for whole race, which is huge advantage
she's kenyan so the likelihood of doping is very high just based on their history and culture of doping. that's not to say she isn't also a generational talent.
I always criticize people who make unfounded doping allegations. But you put it correctly.
This is a fair assessment of the possibility of her doping.
The moderators should recognize the difference between what you said and what others say- making statements that are absolute.
The sad reality is that talent in distance running for a long time has largely meant how well someone responded to performance enhancing drugs, now talent additionally means how well someone response to shoes that should have been banned if Nike didn't corrupt the sport by first giving their athletes banned substances and now mechanical aids that further distort the spirt.
Ashley Mateoo's article in Outside titled "Hyper Responders" had half of the modern story well, but skipped over the responding to drugs angle, "The truth is, while Assefa and Kiptum won the genetic lottery when it comes to optimizing endurance performance, they likely also respond super well to super shoes."
Now is it possible for a woman, with male pacers, to run a 28:46 on the roads without using performance enhancing drugs? I am still very skeptical. I think one of the worst things about Nike corrupting the sport to allow clown shoes with high stack heights to be "legal" is that it actually gave athletes a free pass to use banned substances as well. The shoes have been a great cover for likely increased doping by top athletes since they appeared in 2017. Yes the shoes help most people, but for now the golden ticket to world records appears to be a hyper responder to drugs and shoes.
Back in 1992, Wang Junxia ran a 32:29 10k. A year later, in 1993 she ran a 29:31. Assuming she wasn't doping in 1992, that means that now 30-year old PEDs helped her drop her 10k time by almost three minutes. Performance enhancing drugs have certainly gotten much better in the last 30 years, and the new shoes for those that respond well are certainly good for at least 60 seconds. So if a woman is blessed with being a hyper responder to drugs and shoes, she probably needs a natural 10k ability of about 33 minute to run sub 29 doped to the gills and with super shoes. Again, the vast majority of 33 minute 10k runners ain't running under 29 minutes with Lance Armstrong level doping support and super shoes, but if like Lance you have the "talent" to respond well to drugs then is possible.
To add: if she ran 28:46 clean, what could she have run doped? 28:16? 27:46?
I agree, you need to be a super talent and a "hyper responder to drugs and shoes" for records these days. If you are not, someone else who is all of the above gets the record.
I usually do not jump on the doping bandwagon, but for someone to go from not breaking 15 minutes on a fast BAA course last year, to dropping a 14:13 then a 14:43.... makes me wonder.
You think she was time trialing a road 5k that her sponsor made her due? I don't. She had already gotten 3rd at World xc at that point. Clearly she was capable of breaking 15:00 with ease.
To be honest, I think the conclusion is it has to be at least #2 and #4. Big talent and shoes. Whether 1 (short course) and 3 (doping) are also true is up for debate.
Her manager was also the manager for the men's 10k record holder from Valencia, Rhonex Kipruto. He's also got connections with other banned athletes. This is easily a "where there's smoke there's fire" situation.
This is a bad post. The fact that she's represented by Davor makes me think it's less likely she is doping.
The manager like just about all agents has represented people who have cheated. The difference is he has for a long time been calling for more testing, paying back commissions for people who cheat, etc. I would say he has the opposite of a shady reptutation.
But I get it. If you don't know the whole story, you see anyone tied to doping and you think that means they are dirty. I mean a European guy Weldon ran into at Millrose last year just assumed the whole OAC was dirty as they are coached by Ritz who was part of the NOP.
Can't remember seeing this before: agent Davor Savija, head of Ikaika Sports, commits to repay appearance fees/prize money earned by his athlete Vincent Yator, who tested positive for testosterone & was provisionally suspended on Oct. 1.https://t.co/i0scWFX9Gm
Leading road races should work together with Abbott WMM events & dedicate funds from their own budgets for deep & comprehensive #doping testing program. Pool of athletes able to compete in leading road races should be defined & stable for 6-12 month period. Rinse & repeat.
But it should also be noted that Savija has long pushed to strengthen the sport’s anti-doping infrastructure. In 2017, he was lobbying for road races to kick in money for more rigorous out-of-competition testing long before the Athletics Integrity Unit required Label Road Race its to do just that. In 2020, he made a written offer — one that still stands — for the AIU to test and monitor athletes in the Ikaika camp 24 hours a day so they could better understand their physiology under different conditions and during different portions of the season. He has offered the AIU use of his clients in a study to track maximum hemoglobin mass in parallel to their Athlete Biological Passport.
Three thoughts. I think there's something going on that is next level beyond just EPO and regular super shoes.
1. I think they need to start doing chromosome and testosterone level testing in addition to physical examinations for all record broken runs. Not all women who are slightly more male (Semenya) necessarily look like males.
2. CRISPR has gotten FDA approval for genetic modifications to eradicate sickle cell disease. This technology is not regulated outside of the developed world. Might we be seeing one of the first genetically modified athletes by way of a CRISPR-like procedure where something gets enhanced or removed to benefit the runner?
3. Pro cycling is riddled with mechanical doping allegations (bike is electric but hidden). Might we be seeing the early signs of these shoes having some extra, 3rd party-enhanced advantage like battery-operated springs/recoil, that's adding energy return that was not originally hers?
Her form is not great and yet she's running that fast? Energy costs for operating at those speeds, for a woman, is extremely high. I suspect one of the 3 items I listed above is happening.
The CRISPR side could be fascinating. The article on the Chinese guy who already went ahead and manipulated a fetus was wild. And he's already back at it apparently. He Jiankui is the scientist for anyone wanting to look into it.
Her manager was also the manager for the men's 10k record holder from Valencia, Rhonex Kipruto. He's also got connections with other banned athletes. This is easily a "where there's smoke there's fire" situation.
This is a bad post. The fact that she's represented by Davor makes me think it's less likely she is doping.
The manager like just about all agents has represented people who have cheated. The difference is he has for a long time been calling for more testing, paying back commissions for people who cheat, etc. I would say he has the opposite of a shady reptutation.
But I get it. If you don't know the whole story, you see anyone tied to doping and you think that means they are dirty. I mean a European guy Weldon ran into at Millrose last year just assumed the whole OAC was dirty as they are coached by Ritz who was part of the NOP.
But it should also be noted that Savija has long pushed to strengthen the sport’s anti-doping infrastructure. In 2017, he was lobbying for road races to kick in money for more rigorous out-of-competition testing long before the Athletics Integrity Unit required Label Road Race its to do just that. In 2020, he made a written offer — one that still stands — for the AIU to test and monitor athletes in the Ikaika camp 24 hours a day so they could better understand their physiology under different conditions and during different portions of the season. He has offered the AIU use of his clients in a study to track maximum hemoglobin mass in parallel to their Athlete Biological Passport.
So Rhonex Kipruto isn't the only cheat he's worked with then? Multiple cheats.
All the 'pay back your money' and 'AIU come and have a close look' stuff is just PR fluff, but I guess it's working if the owner of the greatest running website on earth falls for it too.
A poster stated that Tirunesh Dibaba held the 5k track WR for 11 years and then it was smashed by Gidey in 2020. Three years later in 2023 Gidey started the year as current WR holder and within five months of track action managed to slip to the fourth fastest time - and one of the times ahead of her was by Chebet who didn’t even win the race! A study needs to be made as to how many African women were getting full supported training, nutrition and management, on their own self supporting platform 15-20 years ago as opposed to now. I believe the numbers of talented female athletes being discovered and refined has exploded in the past 10 years. We finally have a critical mass of top flight female talent determined to make their mark. It’s an exponential growth curve of talent and development hitherto never seen. Why does nobody speak of this?
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