Who was Don Sage?

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2 years ago 12/31/2023 7:32pm EST

re: Newname

Newname wrote:
Mike Stember ran a 4:04 1600m in 1994 as a HS Jr.
I think that was the beginning of the renaissance of HS miling

Stember was a great runner, but according to this profile, that 4:04 came in 1995 and he finished high school in 1996:

bringbackthemile.com

Catching up with Michael Stember

The Jesuit High legend, 2000 Olympian and now a successful restaurant owner, Stember's next project will incorporate both of his passions. By Henry Krueger '21, Editor-in-Chief, Plank While Jesuit High School in Sacramento is...

Open link

From what I could find, the top high school miler in 1994 was Meb, who won the National Scholastic Invitational mile that year in 4:05, with Seneca Lassiter second in 4:07.

I think it’s difficult to pinpoint one runner or year as the beginning of the renaissance of high school miling or, more broadly, US distance running. Many will understandably say it started with the Big 3 in the 2000-2001 school year, but there were notable runners who starred in the decade before them such as those mentioned in this thread plus Andy Powell (4:02 mile as a high schooler in 1999), Jorge Torres, Adam Goucher, and others.

At the pro level, we had Bob Kennedy, Todd Williams, and Marc Davis running well in the mid to late 1990s. Ritz has stated that Kennedy inspired him. So the Big 3 were inspired by their predecessors, who were inspired by those who came before them. It’s a lineage.

The most significant development in the renaissance of American distance running was probably the internet. Here’s what Kennedy said about it, when commenting on how high school distance running changed in the 25 years since he had competed in high school:

“Twenty-five years ago there was a big void in information, meaning we'd be waiting for Track & Field News to come out every month before you knew what the guys in the rest of the country were doing. Now it's instantaneous with the Internet of course. So, what I think that has done is raise the level and depth of competition at the high school level just because you know what you have to do. Now I know I need to run 9:10, 9:05, 8:55, whatever, and that changes how you approach your training -- and your racing, ultimately.”

espn.com

The Catalyst: 5 Q's with Bob Kennedy

Twenty five years ago, a schoolboy from Ohio named Bob Kennedy won the 1987 Kinney (now Footlocker) High School Cross Country Championships, kick-starting a competitive career that would go on to include two Olympic appearanc...

Open link

2 years ago 12/31/2023 7:48pm EST

re: Peach Pit

Don also took 3rd at USATF cross and I ran a respectable race at Worlds. He also was a trials finalist at 1500 finishing 7th in final as a collegian.

2 years ago 12/31/2023 7:51pm EST

re: lalalalalalal

lalalalalalal wrote:
He kept Don out of races that had more national press, and he also kept a kind of press silence. Until Don was a senior. Don was running sub 4.20 in junior high. And yes, I provided both his 1600 and mile time, since it has been reported that way for 20+ years.
BTW, Don ran more than 90mpw at York. My kids topped out at 120. One of my kids just visited Don this past fall.

He only ran FL once and Golden West once. Newton's philosophy was to train hard but not overrace. Not a bad philosophy.

2 years ago 12/31/2023 7:55pm EST

re: lalalalalalal

lalalalalalal wrote:
He kept Don out of races that had more national press, and he also kept a kind of press silence. Until Don was a senior. Don was running sub 4.20 in junior high. And yes, I provided both his 1600 and mile time, since it has been reported that way for 20+ years.
BTW, Don ran more than 90mpw at York. My kids topped out at 120. One of my kids just visited Don this past fall.

How do you know that? It makes no sense at all.

2 years ago 12/31/2023 7:59pm EST

re: 4:20 is not that fast

4:20 is not that fast wrote:
lalalalalalal wrote:
He kept Don out of races that had more national press, and he also kept a kind of press silence. Until Don was a senior. Don was running sub 4.20 in junior high. And yes, I provided both his 1600 and mile time, since it has been reported that way for 20+ years.
BTW, Don ran more than 90mpw at York. My kids topped out at 120. One of my kids just visited Don this past fall.
How do you know that? It makes no sense at all.

The racing schedule was true. The mileage claim was not. Newton early stressed high mileage but he adapted and cut back on the mileage around the early 90's before Don was running.

2 years ago 12/31/2023 8:23pm EST

re: Peach Pit

Don Sage, York #01 runner, was in the shadows of the Torres brothers (Wheeling) as an underclassmen but was just as gifted. He did not race Footlocker Midwest until senior year. At the national meet, he finished second to junior Ritzenhein.

https://www.footlockercc.com/history/1999boys.htm

Alan Webb had a significant but also underwhelming junior year post-season (for him). He declined the Prefontaine Classic and Sage was asked to step in after his 8:42 3200 at IHSA. Still, Webb salvaged a 3:59 1600m relay split at one of the national meets leaving off on a good note.

Sage went from really really good to all-time great at the end of his senior season because he made the most of every opportunity and was an excellent racer. When he ran the 8:42 at IHSA, the way he did it with a 52 second final lap, it's as if he finally stole the show from the junior class. It was exciting because it was also a surprise. Then he took Webb's spot at Pre Classic and made then most of that opportunity, getting closer to 4 minutes than what anyone expected. I think somewhere in his high school marks is a 1:51 open 800 too.

Sage was very good.

He won the NCAA 1500 and was part of the strong Stanford cross country contingent that dominated for a couple years.

The next one in line from the IHSA was Micah Vandenend (sub-4:20/9:20 as a sophomore). Vandenend won IHSA xc, 1600 and 3200 as a senior. He didnt get out of Footlocker Midwest which was a big disappointment for him as a senior. His biggest issue in college (Iowa) was being injury prone. He salvaged a sub-14 5000, essentially based on talent alone as his training was hardly consistent. But he was arguably just as talented as the Torres brothers and Sage were. Vandenend might have been a 10000m Team USA candidate at some point had he reached his potential.

Talking about Sage and Vandenend puts into perspective how difficult it is to become an Olympian. It requires:

a) top level talent (which all these guys had)

b) consistent, injury free training (not everyone had)

c) and a little bit of luck in being at the right place in your training/life at the right time during an Olympic year (who is Ian Dobson?).

2 years ago 12/31/2023 8:36pm EST

re: Newname

Newname wrote:
Mike Stember ran a 4:04 1600m in 1994 as a HS Jr.
I think that was the beginning of the renaissance of HS miling

The renaissance was triggered by a few things:

1) Bob Kennedy (7:30/12:58) chasing his dreams and training in Kenya

2) Adam Goucher running 3:54-7:43-13:11 in 1999

3) Tim Broe in the 3000, Steeplechase & 5000

4) the talented & eccentric Gabe Jennings coming out of high school, doing well as a true freshman and winning the 2000 NCAA title and Olynpic Trials

5) the 1999 and 2000 Footlocker race results

6) partially Dan Browne & Jonathon Riley

2 years ago 12/31/2023 10:03pm EST

re: Elmhurst #01

Torres brothers were running 90+ mpw in HS. Same with Ritz. Not a huge surprise if Don and others ran that amount of mileage. Hall peaked at 75mpw in HS (albeit at higher altitude). I think training info started leaking out.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 12:27am EST

re: Elmhurst #01

Elmhurst #01 wrote:
Don Sage, York #01 runner, was in the shadows of the Torres brothers (Wheeling) as an underclassmen but was just as gifted. He did not race Footlocker Midwest until senior year. At the national meet, he finished second to junior Ritzenhein.
Link:www.footlockercc.com/history/1999boys....
Alan Webb had a significant but also underwhelming junior year post-season (for him). He declined the Prefontaine Classic and Sage was asked to step in after his 8:42 3200 at IHSA. Still, Webb salvaged a 3:59 1600m relay split at one of the national meets leaving off on a good note.
Sage went from really really good to all-time great at the end of his senior season because he made the most of every opportunity and was an excellent racer. When he ran the 8:42 at IHSA, the way he did it with a 52 second final lap, it's as if he finally stole the show from the junior class. It was exciting because it was also a surprise. Then he took Webb's spot at Pre Classic and made then most of that opportunity, getting closer to 4 minutes than what anyone expected. I think somewhere in his high school marks is a 1:51 open 800 too.
Sage was very good.
He won the NCAA 1500 and was part of the strong Stanford cross country contingent that dominated for a couple years.
The next one in line from the IHSA was Micah Vandenend (sub-4:20/9:20 as a sophomore). Vandenend won IHSA xc, 1600 and 3200 as a senior. He didnt get out of Footlocker Midwest which was a big disappointment for him as a senior. His biggest issue in college (Iowa) was being injury prone. He salvaged a sub-14 5000, essentially based on talent alone as his training was hardly consistent. But he was arguably just as talented as the Torres brothers and Sage were. Vandenend might have been a 10000m Team USA candidate at some point had he reached his potential.
Talking about Sage and Vandenend puts into perspective how difficult it is to become an Olympian. It requires:
a) top level talent (which all these guys had)
b) consistent, injury free training (not everyone had)
c) and a little bit of luck in being at the right place in your training/life at the right time during an Olympic year (who is Ian Dobson?).

Comparing Vandenend to Sage or the Torres brothers is a hilarious comparison. He as you point out didn’t make footlocker and don’t think he ever was an All American at Iowa. Why even bring him into the conversation? Good guy though.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 1:07am EST

re: chickenug

chickenug wrote:
obligatory:
Video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXlcey3Cq6Y

I was sitting on the backstretch that day. Definitely got goosebumps the final lap.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 1:09am EST

re: Runnerrrrr

Runnerrrrr wrote:
Fanagan wrote:
...told an audience of 500 teens that they shouldn’t focus on long term development & to embrace hard training in hs. At the time we were all shocked he said that but looking back I see his point. I even remember him mentioning don in his speech & saying he had him running 90 Mile weeks bc that’s how you get good. Controversial statements for sure...
Interesting, have the utmost respect for Joe Newton, but I don't know how I feel about that! Maybe some kids wanna peak in college, or post-college (aka, pro).
Lots of glory in h.s. state championships though, I get it. I've always thought it's better to aim to peak in your mid-20s (men), and early or mid 30s (women). I'm not Joe Newton though, so what do I know? /s.

Would you rather be the kid than ran 17:00 in hs, 16:00 in college, and then Peaked at 15:30 at 25 or the kid that ran 16:15 in hs, 15:45 in college and then never ran faster? The first kid struggles to make variants while the second would have gotten to run the state meet. Peaking at 25 is great for the couple dozen guys who are out to make Olympic teams. For 99%, you want to peak in HS because that is about as high of level that your talent will allow you to be competitive at.

Now you can take this to stupid levels. It is one thing to build kids up to say 60-70mpw over 4 years. Another when you start talking 100mpw and some of the year round intensity programs…

2 years ago 01/01/2024 2:31am EST

re: BringhamOldUniversity

BringhamOldUniversity wrote:
Comparing Vandenend to Sage or the Torres brothers is a hilarious comparison. He as you point out didn’t make footlocker and don’t think he ever was an All American at Iowa. Why even bring him into the conversation? Good guy though.

Micah was just as talented as the Torres brothers. He was the next in line. I know the talent when I see it. I ran against him periodcally in high school and also in the Big Ten. I think even in high school he was battling back from injuries. A qualifier through Footlocker MW senior year was essentially his for the taking. Something went wrong that day. But if he had gotten through he would have been top 5.

Why bring him in the convo? Because three IHSA state champs, similar talent and three different ending results.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 5:51am EST

re: Peach Pit

Back in 2002, I ran at the Penn Relays. I was jogging over to the bathrooms to piss as I was about to race soon. I see Don Sage ahead of me with a couple of Stanford runners also heading into the same bathroom. He stops, looks at me, then tells his other teammates to wait for me so that I could go in first. Not only polite, it was as he had a sixth sense that I was in the next race and wanted to make sure that I could get my business done without having the added pressure to wait for others to go before me.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 8:09am EST

re: Peach Pit

Peach Pit wrote:
Some post made me want to go back and read this. It shows the top 5 HS milers at the 3:00 mark, and I saw that #5 was Don Sage, who had run 4:00.29 the year before. The story I always heard was that the big 3 came around in 2001 and rejuvenated distance running, but the year before, Sage still ran the #4 time ever (still faster than Hall, even though Hall got a ton of hype). Did he go on to do anything afterwards? Were there guys running 4:00-4:02 consistently back then, and just none under 4?
Link:www.letsrun.com/news/2020/05/i-was-bor...

Seriously? How old are you? He was very good high school miler 2 miler and had a successful collegiate career at Stanford but not much after that as far as running goes

2 years ago 01/01/2024 8:14am EST

re: McRunnin

McRunnin wrote:
Newname wrote:
Mike Stember ran a 4:04 1600m in 1994 as a HS Jr.
I think that was the beginning of the renaissance of HS miling
Stember was a great runner, but according to this profile, that 4:04 came in 1995 and he finished high school in 1996:
Link:bringbackthemile.com/news/detail/catch...
From what I could find, the top high school miler in 1994 was Meb, who won the National Scholastic Invitational mile that year in 4:05, with Seneca Lassiter second in 4:07.
I think it’s difficult to pinpoint one runner or year as the beginning of the renaissance of high school miling or, more broadly, US distance running. Many will understandably say it started with the Big 3 in the 2000-2001 school year, but there were notable runners who starred in the decade before them such as those mentioned in this thread plus Andy Powell (4:02 mile as a high schooler in 1999), Jorge Torres, Adam Goucher, and others.
At the pro level, we had Bob Kennedy, Todd Williams, and Marc Davis running well in the mid to late 1990s. Ritz has stated that Kennedy inspired him. So the Big 3 were inspired by their predecessors, who were inspired by those who came before them. It’s a lineage.
The most significant development in the renaissance of American distance running was probably the internet. Here’s what Kennedy said about it, when commenting on how high school distance running changed in the 25 years since he had competed in high school:
“Twenty-five years ago there was a big void in information, meaning we'd be waiting for Track & Field News to come out every month before you knew what the guys in the rest of the country were doing. Now it's instantaneous with the Internet of course. So, what I think that has done is raise the level and depth of competition at the high school level just because you know what you have to do. Now I know I need to run 9:10, 9:05, 8:55, whatever, and that changes how you approach your training -- and your racing, ultimately.”
Link:www.espn.com/blog/endurance/post/_/id/...

Yes. I was off a year on Stember. Prior to his 4:04 1600m as a junior, there had been no talk of anyone in HS running a 4 minute mile. He was followed by Gabe Jennings et al and finally Alan Webb in 2001

2 years ago 01/01/2024 9:03am EST

re: Lama Turd

Lama Turd wrote:
The big three were called the big three for a reason. He was smoked by Ritz at Footlocker, but he still got 2nd beating Alan Webb, Galen Rupp, Evan Jager, and Matt Withrow. He was a 3-time All-American at Stanfurd in XC. Won the NCAA 1500 as a sophomore beating Alan Webb, German Fernandez, Seb Coe and Jim Ryun.
They say Gene Roddenbery got the idea for Star Trek from listening to Sage talk in his sleep.
Did I ever tell you about the time Sage went hunting? Sage decides he's going to hunt down all four of the Banana Splits. He stalks and kills every one of them with a machette. They all begged for their lives...except Fleagle.

Jim Ryun had retired years before.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 9:24am EST

re: Not An Expert

Not An Expert wrote:
And a lot of top college programs will be less interested in HSers who have gotten good by hammering 80+ mpw, as there’s less room for improvement.

Is this true? Let’s say a Power 5 coach has a potential recruit who’s run 4:05 on 80 miles/week and one who’s run 4:10 on 50 miles/week. You think he’s going to less interested in the faster guy because he’s run higher mileage? How closely do college coaches examine the mileage and training of their recruits? College coaching isn’t just a case of adding 30 miles/week and watching their guys’ times drop. The 50 mile/week guy might have hit his mileage ceiling and break down with more miles. I think coaches are almost always going to go for the faster guy especially if he’s got the XC placings as well.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 9:30am EST

re: Newname

Newname wrote:
McRunnin wrote:
Stember was a great runner, but according to this profile, that 4:04 came in 1995 and he finished high school in 1996:
Link:bringbackthemile.com/news/detail/catch...
From what I could find, the top high school miler in 1994 was Meb, who won the National Scholastic Invitational mile that year in 4:05, with Seneca Lassiter second in 4:07.
I think it’s difficult to pinpoint one runner or year as the beginning of the renaissance of high school miling or, more broadly, US distance running. Many will understandably say it started with the Big 3 in the 2000-2001 school year, but there were notable runners who starred in the decade before them such as those mentioned in this thread plus Andy Powell (4:02 mile as a high schooler in 1999), Jorge Torres, Adam Goucher, and others.
At the pro level, we had Bob Kennedy, Todd Williams, and Marc Davis running well in the mid to late 1990s. Ritz has stated that Kennedy inspired him. So the Big 3 were inspired by their predecessors, who were inspired by those who came before them. It’s a lineage.
The most significant development in the renaissance of American distance running was probably the internet. Here’s what Kennedy said about it, when commenting on how high school distance running changed in the 25 years since he had competed in high school:
“Twenty-five years ago there was a big void in information, meaning we'd be waiting for Track & Field News to come out every month before you knew what the guys in the rest of the country were doing. Now it's instantaneous with the Internet of course. So, what I think that has done is raise the level and depth of competition at the high school level just because you know what you have to do. Now I know I need to run 9:10, 9:05, 8:55, whatever, and that changes how you approach your training -- and your racing, ultimately.”
Link:www.espn.com/blog/endurance/post/_/id/...
Yes. I was off a year on Stember. Prior to his 4:04 1600m as a junior, there had been no talk of anyone in HS running a 4 minute mile. He was followed by Gabe Jennings et al and finally Alan Webb in 2001

Plenty of guys talked about sub4. Louie Quinanta (sp) was in runners world after running like 1:50/4:08 as a junior. But not many kids were dropping the sub 4:05s which made it seem reasonable in the late 80s/90s when the top time was often a 4:07…

2 years ago 01/01/2024 11:53am EST

re: Elmhurst #01

Elmhurst #01 wrote:
BringhamOldUniversity wrote:
Comparing Vandenend to Sage or the Torres brothers is a hilarious comparison. He as you point out didn’t make footlocker and don’t think he ever was an All American at Iowa. Why even bring him into the conversation? Good guy though.
Micah was just as talented as the Torres brothers. He was the next in line. I know the talent when I see it. I ran against him periodcally in high school and also in the Big Ten. I think even in high school he was battling back from injuries. A qualifier through Footlocker MW senior year was essentially his for the taking. Something went wrong that day. But if he had gotten through he would have been top 5.
Why bring him in the convo? Because three IHSA state champs, similar talent and three different ending results.

Come on Elmhurst #01. Maybe as had the talent of Eduardo but Jorge made 4 FLCC finals. Was a FLCC champion in 1998. Won NCAA cross country title in 02 (and was also third and second). Also an Olympian. This was a thread about Don Sage yet we are talking/comparing him to a guy who never made footlocker, was an NCAA All American or broke 9:00. If we are throwing out Illinois high schoolers why not mention Lukas Verzbicas or Chris Derrick? Nothing against Micah but come on.

2 years ago 01/01/2024 11:57am EST

re: 4:20 is not that fast

"How do you know that? It makes no sense at all."

I know it because I was there, because Joe Newton was a friend, because Don was friends with my kids, and spent plenty of time with them. I knew Don's dad and mom quite well. I went to most of his meets even after my kids had graduated.

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