I realize this is an academic discussion at this point, but a map would be helpful. I usually fallback on take the shortest line unless it's otherwise marked or instructed. Sounds like that was ambiguous. Some courses just use lines to keep runners from getting lost (i.e. follow the line), but I don't ever recall an instance where I was instructed to stay within so many feet of the line.
We used to run a course that ran along a curved fence inside some baseball diamonds. I never saw a runner cut a straight line rather than following the fence. But if they had, it would certainly be an advantage and result in a DQ.
As a runner myself I was in the scenario you describe with the baseball field. The course went through the field twice once at 1.5 miles again around mile 4. On the first pass I cut straight across, I was the only one. On the second pass coaches were yelling and telling confused runners to cut straight across, some were, some weren’t, and some were midway between the line and the tangent. It was a relatively large college meet with multiple officials on the course. I finished well enough to impact the individual awards and team standings and there was no talk of DQing anyone, a year later there were cones. I think it is the experience of seeing coaches instruct their runners to follow my example that colored my expectations here.
Running the tangent between cones is always the smart thing to do. If there are no cones, you run the tangent between whatever the last cone was and the next one.
You were right and the coach should apologize to you for marking the course in an ambiguous way. But I wouldn't hold your breath for that.
Running the tangent between cones is always the smart thing to do. If there are no cones, you run the tangent between whatever the last cone was and the next one.
You were right and the coach should apologize to you for marking the course in an ambiguous way. But I wouldn't hold your breath for that.
Up until yesterday and today I thought that if the question was, “should xc runners run the tangents, from cone to cone?” there could only be 2 answers 1) yes, absolutely
2) gee, I’ve never thought about it.
I am absolutely gobsmacked to learn that experienced coaches and athletes believe it’s a rules violation or at least an immoral practice.
it seems here that some of what’s at issue here is that generally running the tangents saves a few feet or a fraction of a second each time, repeated throughout a race to maybe save 5-10 seconds by the end. The casual observer would see no difference between a runner spotting tangents and one following the line. Here one instance saved several dozen feet and maybe 10-12 seconds and every observer could see that one athlete was different from the rest. Still, IMO if the practice is acceptable when it saves 2 feet it’s also acceptable when it saves 50. To me the issue seems so clear that I shocked to find intelligent experienced runners disagreeing.
I got into a moderately heated discussion today. A runner in a XC meet followed the flags, ran the tangents and ran around every cone, tree, etc that the paint line went around. The paint line at one point curved around the inside of a curved fence, letter “C” shaped with the line being a small “c” inside. One runner ran straight across the field, at one point she was 35 or so feet from the chalk line, other runners ran on both sides of the line but not more than 10-12 feet from it. I have two questions. 1) is it a rules violation to be more than some specific distance from the paint line?, should the runner be disqualified ? 2) if within the rules is it unethical or unsportsmanlike? Do they deserve a lecture from the coach?
Be sure to volunteer to help out at the next few XC races in your area. Help mow the course, mark it, put out cones at 430am... you know.. all the fun stuff.
It is clearly cheating. Take your argument to an extreme and a runner can just start and head straight to the finish which may be 20 feet away.
I wrote to the head of XC officiating - here are the salient portions of our exchange:
My Question: The question is this, while running a cross country course is there a distance from the chalk/paint line that runners must remain within? My understanding has always been that runners simply needed to go around all the hard barriers (cones, rocks, trees, flags, etc.) that the line does but that their distance from the line is irrelevant. Most specifically I’m asking, if there is an open field with a cone on each end and the line between them is arced can a runner run the straight line from one cone to the next without risking disqualification? Does the degree of the arc need to be considered? For instance is it okay if running the tangent takes the athlete five feet from the line but not okay if it takes the thirty feet? If so how far may an athlete deviate from the line?
His Answer: There are a few NFHS rules at play in your question; 8-1 (details a legal course and marking system) and 8-6-f that that states “ f. Fails to complete the prescribed course that is defined by a legal marking system.” Neither of these rules directly outlines an answer to your question and the rule, is in my opinion, left vague intentionally due to the drastic differences in each course.
In the specific situation you ask about related to a single line with cones, rule 8-1-1 dictates that additional markers should be used to indicate the course. The single line also does not necessarily indicated the shortest route. In this instance as there is no cone, marker, etc. along the arched line a runner could run in a direct line from one boundary marker to the other. I'f there was a boundary marker in the middle of the curved line, they would need to run around that marker.
I got into a moderately heated discussion today. A runner in a XC meet followed the flags, ran the tangents and ran around every cone, tree, etc that the paint line went around. The paint line at one point curved around the inside of a curved fence, letter “C” shaped with the line being a small “c” inside. One runner ran straight across the field, at one point she was 35 or so feet from the chalk line, other runners ran on both sides of the line but not more than 10-12 feet from it. I have two questions. 1) is it a rules violation to be more than some specific distance from the paint line?, should the runner be disqualified ? 2) if within the rules is it unethical or unsportsmanlike? Do they deserve a lecture from the coach?
So first of all dont listen to people who defend poor race organizers. Many do a crap job. Seems to me getting a 5k course right is job 1. Ill never understand how they get that one wrong. Please please spare me the "they are just volunteers" stuff. If you volunteer to run something and mess it up, you can still be questioned. Maybe you shouldnt have volunteered to direct the meet. I have volunteered my coaching many times and still have an obligation not to be incompetent.
Having said that, perhaps you stated your advice incorrectly or are trolling? Did you really tell your runner to just cut across the course ignoring the white line? Thats seems extreme and will get you some downvotes as it were. Why would you tell someone to cut the course? Now if you are saying everyone was doing it then we understand. Not sure if you were clear though. Are we talking 6-10 feet from the line? Or cutting the course?
I got into a moderately heated discussion today. A runner in a XC meet followed the flags, ran the tangents and ran around every cone, tree, etc that the paint line went around. The paint line at one point curved around the inside of a curved fence, letter “C” shaped with the line being a small “c” inside. One runner ran straight across the field, at one point she was 35 or so feet from the chalk line, other runners ran on both sides of the line but not more than 10-12 feet from it. I have two questions. 1) is it a rules violation to be more than some specific distance from the paint line?, should the runner be disqualified ? 2) if within the rules is it unethical or unsportsmanlike? Do they deserve a lecture from the coach?
Be sure to volunteer to help out at the next few XC races in your area. Help mow the course, mark it, put out cones at 430am... you know.. all the fun stuff.
We will, if that means doing it correctly. Stop making excuses.
I wrote to the head of XC officiating - here are the salient portions of our exchange:
...
His Answer...
If it is true that you were correct about the rule, why did you tell only your daughter about it and not share this information with her coach and all the runners on your daughter's team ahead of time, so the whole team could benefit?
Here's something that is NOT a XC rule, contrary to popular belief:
If you are younger than 23, you must run XC within the confines of a school-sponsored program.
Outside of the US, this is not considered a rule and it is widely ignored. In the US, however, it may not have ever been broken. More than 99% compliance without actually being a rule.
I assume this is a high school meet? First off, by the rules this is not a disqualification according to NHFS rules.
They should have had flags, pennant banner flags, or at the very least cones out there if they wanted runners to go around the curve of a fence line. The painted line on the ground is not enough. This reminds me of my high school days when I had to lead most races and the course description was the host coach pointing at various field saying how many times, we had to run each one and how obvious it is. I basically had to memorize the last half mile and run with the host school's top runner up until that point. I still have stress dreams about this.
Now, I am a coach. We host two meets each year and there is absolutely no chance anyone will cut the course as we spend 5-8 hours each time with cones, flags, and pendants.
You're probably not going to like this but the group that marked the course should be confronted and not the athletes.
I didn't want to sound biased in the original post, so here is the rest of the story, the runner in question is my daughter. About an hour before the race, she and I walked a portion of the course and I pointed out that this was a point where leaving the line would make sense. We discussed how most if not all the other runners would likely stay close to the chalk line and I left the discussion telling her that as the race was still an hour away that cones could be added but if they weren’t, she should cut straight across. It was a quad meet and her team was hosting, after the race I was talking with my daughter, her coach, who in this case was also hosting the race, came up and told my daughter they were discussing whether or not she would be DQed. My daughter asked for an explanation and the coach explained that rules were that she had to remain close to the line. This is where I interjected insisting that there was no rule regarding proximately to the line and the coach insisted that it is a rule. I said I was 100% certain that there was no such rule, I had been certain prior to giving my daughter the advice but while she was warming up, I reviewed the rules because I knew it was a bold move that was likely to garner attention. The coach and I went back and forth for several minutes her insisting that she had been involved in XC for many years and knew the rules and that if my daughter did that in the larger race this weekend, she would be DQed. I asked the coach about this “rule”, I asked “how close is close? Can she be 10 feet off?”, “yes”, “Can she be 15 feet off?”, “15 is kind of a lot”, “so like 12?” “yes, 12 feet is the limit, she just has to stay close”. Eventually we agreed to disagree and I said that while my daughter is on this team, she will follow the coach’s instructions. Lastly though I said “hey you’ve got another meet in three weeks, how about I buy some cones, and donate them to the program to be placed around that field and the problem is solved.” The coach said that was not necessary or desired because everyone except my daughter knows and obeys the rules regarding the line, as it was clearly an intentional move, I felt she was insinuating my daughter and I were dishonest cheaters. I insisted that running the tangents is smart racing and common practice, coach feels it is a dishonest, un-sportsman like practice and actually cheating. I feel bad about getting into the discussion, I emailed the coach last night and apologized for disrespecting her but the idea that I am so certain about the rules and she is equally certain is still somehow eating at me. I just wondered, does the community in general believe there is a rule like this? Is this coach woefully misinformed or is her belief a commonly held one within the sport?
LOL, all this for some meaningless early season quad meet? This is like cheating on an ungraded school assignment and then arguing with the teacher about it.
Your daughter should be focussing on getting ready for the state meet in a couple months, not on gimmicks to gain an advantage in a race that literally doesn't matter.
Speaking of rule issues... does your state get all militant with things like shallow (even if dried) creek crossings or hay bales on the course? OHSAA (Ohio) recently declared these obstacles unsafe and therefore illegal when it comes to XC courses. Mason has a classic, old-world cross country course, complete with Euro type bale obstacles, that had to be changed.
Interestingly, football is still legal, as are headers in soccer, checking in lacrosse and hockey, and - crazy enough - slams and holds in wrestling. But damn if your feet get wet or you have to hop over a hay bale. UNSAFE!
People like you make it harder for high school coaches. Most do a lot for the very little pay. Stop being a helicopter and just let the coach handle anything that deals with the sport. You really shouldn't be getting into a back and forth argument. Its petty and it only makes you look bad..
I agree, I apologized to the coach, I told her I will temper my enthusiasm in the future, I fully understand that it is unacceptable, that I should have kept my mouth shut. I had a chance to point it out before the meet, I had a chance to volunteer to help layout the course and I didn't, and if I'm not going to invest upfront I should not complain on the back. In that respect I am absolutely the dick here. I was disrespectful to someone who is volunteering their time to make my daughters life better, but I have apologized both in person and in writing and beyond that there is little I can do other than simply be better in the future. I have no intention of bringing this up with the coach again. Still, the underlying rule or lack of a rule here is causing me to spin, I expected that when she went across the field it would raise eyebrows amongst other parents but I fully believed that everyone who knows XC would see it as smart, heads up running. Now seeing some of the comments here I am seeing that possibly I am the outlier.
I read this but see you posting here, arguing with people, claiming you are right, admitting you went to the meet officials, etc. The reality is that you are a snowplow parent and if I was your daughters coach I would be talking with my AD about keeping you away.
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