For one, Nordas is much more suspect. He has only one good performance, zero indication that he should even get close to 3:29. Especially considering he has a 1:58 800m pr and similar prs to a high level NCAA runner. #2 The page is full of Norwegian fanboys that know nothing about running and wouldn't be here if not to suck Jacobs nuts.
Agreed. How can Nordas run 3:29 with a 1:58 PB??? He must be coming through 800 at close to his PB
1/ Spanish Morroccan nationality/background - the two worst EPO cultures in Europe and North Africa.
2/ Same manager as Cacho.
3/ Doesn't appear to have actually improved since he made his crazy progression 2 years ago.
4/ Manager has defended dopers, calling for convicted dopers to be given a second, third, and fourth chance.
5/ Katir has always been a 1500/5000 man, the Norwegian was a 5000/10000/ half marathoner until this year. He also had precisely two 1500 races last year, both of which he won easily.
6/ When asked about doping, Katir responds with his hands covering his ears, or on Instagram calling the accuser a loser whose wife would prefer to be with him (Katir).
Hello Coevett. Nordas is actually more suspicious because he claims to be talentless and by his results until he was 21.5 it sure seemed like he was by elite standards. 14:08/28:51/1:04:56. Katir meanwhile ran 7:48 before age 21. His 2019 was pretty impressive with a lot of wins (including the Spanish indoor title at 3k). He improved at 2020 though COVID was likely disruptive. 2021 obviously massive improvements. I’m not saying Nordas doped, but the rationale for his breakthrough is he started getting more attention from Gjert, stopped overtraining with Jakob, and discovered his best event at age 24? Is that really more plausible than Katir who got a ton more resources (altitude trips etc), a new coach with advanced training principles, and started racing outside of Spains domestic circuit?
You guys always search desperately for a reason to think a given runner is clean when their performances suggest otherwise. These threads wouldn't arise if there wasn't a justifiable scepticism about the kind of improvements that some top runners make.
Both runners discussed here have made the same jump in a year to the same incredibly high level. 7 seconds over the 1500 to 3.29 in one year in an athlete's mid-twenties is a huge improvement. What would it take for you to say you don't buy it? 8 seconds improvement - 9, 10 seconds? Or maybe nothing pushes that button for you? For many fans, "everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds".
For one, Nordas is much more suspect. He has only one good performance, zero indication that he should even get close to 3:29. Especially considering he has a 1:58 800m pr and similar prs to a high level NCAA runner. #2 The page is full of Norwegian fanboys that know nothing about running and wouldn't be here if not to suck Jacobs nuts.
You guys always search desperately for a reason to think a given runner is clean when their performances suggest otherwise. These threads wouldn't arise if there wasn't a justifiable scepticism about the kind of improvements that some top runners make.
Both runners discussed here have made the same jump in a year to the same incredibly high level. 7 seconds over the 1500 to 3.29 in one year in an athlete's mid-twenties is a huge improvement. What would it take for you to say you don't buy it? 8 seconds improvement - 9, 10 seconds? Or maybe nothing pushes that button for you? For many fans, "everything is for the best in the best of all possible worlds".
I think Nordas did a good job of addressing this. I usually don’t like your takes as a poster, but I admit suspicion with these huge improvements IS warranted. But that doesn’t mean I have to say with 99.9% certainty it is doping. I really don’t know. I think bias should be removed though and in the handling of Nordas vs Katir it is clear to me there has been unfair treatment by many posters.
I think Nordas did a good job of addressing this. I usually don’t like your takes as a poster, but I admit suspicion with these huge improvements IS warranted. But that doesn’t mean I have to say with 99.9% certainty it is doping. I really don’t know. I think bias should be removed though and in the handling of Nordas vs Katir it is clear to me there has been unfair treatment by many posters.
Same with El Bakkali. I’ve seen a poster repeatedly refer to him as “scum,” and unless I’m missing something, there’s only one reason for that.
Spain and Morocco have established doping cultures while Norway doesn't, at least not to the same extent, but I agree that they're both highly suspect
More so than the US? Without going to Google, I bet most people on this forum couldn't name 10 Moroccans or Spaniards who have been popped for doping. I could list 30 Americans off the top of my head
Go ahead and list 30 American distance runners popped for doping. After Regina Jacobs (past her prime) and shelbo the list is pretty small of people with national team appearances. And those cycling team EPO busts have a lot more to do with distance running than whatever sprinters and weight throwers are shooting up these days.
I got to hope most US athletes are clean. Doping it up to run 13:20 seems like a horrible life choice. This isn't Ireland where that gets you on a national team...
More so than the US? Without going to Google, I bet most people on this forum couldn't name 10 Moroccans or Spaniards who have been popped for doping. I could list 30 Americans off the top of my head
Go ahead and list 30 American distance runners popped for doping. After Regina Jacobs (past her prime) and shelbo the list is pretty small of people with national team appearances. And those cycling team EPO busts have a lot more to do with distance running than whatever sprinters and weight throwers are shooting up these days.
I got to hope most US athletes are clean. Doping it up to run 13:20 seems like a horrible life choice. This isn't Ireland where that gets you on a national team...
That's one hell of a shifting of the goal posts. It's not just about distance runners, or only those who have represented the national team. It's about all track athletes. So, with that in mind: Marion Jones, Antonio Pettigrew, Regina Jacobs, Inger Miller, Tim Montgomery, Mary Decker, Shelby Houlihan, Chris Lukezic, Wallace Spearman, LaShawn Merritt, Lindsey Scherf, Butch Reynolds, Tyson Gay, Torri Edwards, Justin Gatlin, Hazel Clark...
and now I'm bored and I haven't even started on the field athletes plus those with credible allegations against them, like FloJo.
The point is, throwing shade on Katir because he runs for a country with "a history of doping" is as ludicrous as throwing on Grant Fisher, Donovan Brazier, and Yared Nuguse. Fisher even trained in the same group as a convicted doper! Nuguse's coach was part of the Oregon project! That's a lot of smoke people are happy to overlook
does it need to be stated again that Nordas likely could have run a 3:33 of 3:34 last year? improvement is not only in numbers.
to say something simple like the "numbers are the numbers" just doesn't work. just as well all know that Nordas is not truly a 1:58 man.
sure he could be doping, but he is not the same as Katir.
See your last sentence is non-sensical. Nordas showed no real improvement from 2021-22. It appeared he’d stagnated in the 3/5k which he focused on and even he says he considered quitting the sport for that exact reason. Did he show promise in the 1500? Sure. But it’s just as reasonable to state he would’ve run 3:34 in 2021. He went from the 7:44/13:15 level for 2 seasons at ages 22-23 to now 3:29 and fully expecting to break 13 his next time out. Meanwhile Katir steadily progressed from 7:44 -> 7:35 at age 22. He then between indoors and outdoors took a big jump. But unlike Nordas we can say there were more changing factors (coaching, equipment, resources). Say what you will but the Nordas improvement arc looks more like Shelby Houlihans than anything else. And again I don’t think he’s doping but that is the most comparable situation.
does it need to be stated again that Nordas likely could have run a 3:33 of 3:34 last year? improvement is not only in numbers.
to say something simple like the "numbers are the numbers" just doesn't work. just as well all know that Nordas is not truly a 1:58 man.
sure he could be doping, but he is not the same as Katir.
See your last sentence is non-sensical. Nordas showed no real improvement from 2021-22. It appeared he’d stagnated in the 3/5k which he focused on and even he says he considered quitting the sport for that exact reason. Did he show promise in the 1500? Sure. But it’s just as reasonable to state he would’ve run 3:34 in 2021. He went from the 7:44/13:15 level for 2 seasons at ages 22-23 to now 3:29 and fully expecting to break 13 his next time out. Meanwhile Katir steadily progressed from 7:44 -> 7:35 at age 22. He then between indoors and outdoors took a big jump. But unlike Nordas we can say there were more changing factors (coaching, equipment, resources). Say what you will but the Nordas improvement arc looks more like Shelby Houlihans than anything else. And again I don’t think he’s doping but that is the most comparable situation.
Wait, so you're actually saying that because Nordas doesn't progress at the 3000/5000, so switches to the 1500 which he has rarely run, and excels, is MORE a sign of doping than Katir plateauing in the 1500/3000 and 5000 for 3 years at fringe national level, and then at age 24 suddenly becomes one of the fastest ever at 1500/3000 and 5000?
Note that Katir only ran 4 1500m races in 2018, and none after June, in which he ran 3:40. Presumably, he could have run a bit faster if he had run more. Then he runs 3:37 and 3:36 in 2019 and 2020, and 3:28 in 2021.
You say that Katir changing coach means his progression is less likely due to doping. If Nordas was already being trained by Gjert, why would Gjert suddenly start doping him? And why when he decides to move to the 5000? You think Gjert sat him down and said - "I think 13:15 is your limit clean in the 5000. But if you agree to take some EPO injections, I can get you down to 3:29 in the 1500m."?
Wait, so you're actually saying that because Nordas doesn't progress at the 3000/5000, so switches to the 1500 which he has rarely run, and excels, is MORE a sign of doping than Katir plateauing in the 1500/3000 and 5000 for 3 years at fringe national level, and then at age 24 suddenly becomes one of the fastest ever at 1500/3000 and 5000?
Note that Katir only ran 4 1500m races in 2018, and none after June, in which he ran 3:40. Presumably, he could have run a bit faster if he had run more. Then he runs 3:37 and 3:36 in 2019 and 2020, and 3:28 in 2021.
Coevett where you miss the point is Katir didn’t really stagnate like Nordas did. Nordas was literally the same athlete in 2021 and 2022. Katir was PRing each season. He started 2019 indoors at the 7:53 level, and closed the outdoor season with a 3:37.2. He started the 2020 indoor season with a 7:48, by the end of outdoors he progressed to 3:36.59 and 7:44. 2021 indoors he opened with a 7:35.29. Like Nordas he brought his 1500 down quickly to 3:33 in his first outdoor race and then got to 3:28.76 in a perfect race setup along with his 7:27. Mind you he was doing this between ages 21-23 as an under supported athlete.
You say that Katir changing coach means his progression is less likely due to doping. If Nordas was already being trained by Gjert, why would Gjert suddenly start doping him? And why when he decides to move to the 5000? You think Gjert sat him down and said - "I think 13:15 is your limit clean in the 5000. But if you agree to take some EPO injections, I can get you down to 3:29 in the 1500m."?
Again I never insinuated Narve did EPO or whatever. But put the shoe on the other foot. Nordas’ training changed barely at all, but now he got a lot more 1-on-1 “attention” from Gjert. I’m sure you’d have your own thoughts on more attention from a coach like Aden or Salazar. Why would you start doping your new best athlete after your sons dumped you because of philosophical differences? Come on now. Again I don’t think this is it, but nobody is more motivated than Gjert. Nordas DID start more altitude training which I do think is a decent explanation. But so did Katir. And if you want to make the spikes argument even more explanation for Katir because when did Asics’ superspike emerge? 2021 indoors I do believe. Nordas intimated he was using Dragonflys so that is not a factor.
Katir plateauing in the 1500/3000 and 5000 for 3 years at fringe national level, and then at age 24 suddenly becomes one of the fastest ever at 1500/3000 and 5000?
How many times it has to be told you that Katir made his big jump at age 23 and Nordas his at age 24?
10 times would not be enough, because you are not interested in the truth. Liar.