The common denominator here is definitely more miles. Currently my easy runs are in the 9:00 - 9:30 mile range. With a little push I can easily make that 8:30 which is where I think I need to be. Combine that with about 5 months of 50-60 MPW I might have a chance at this I think.
1. Don't push the pace. Push the mileage. Let the pace be whatever it will be.
2. You can't race a decent marathon without maximizing your intermediate muscle fibers' aerobic potential. They are not normally recruited during easy runs. There are 3 ways to make them work:
- constantly depleting your slow twitch fibers (not happening on 50-60 MPW or below)
- long runs especially with fast finish (good and useful, but can't be done often enough for optimal results)
- directly by running MP and faster. once a week is good enough, twice is better. racing 10k+ is a good substitution
I have had a sub 3 marathon in mind for a while now and have been building up my base with zone 2 runs over the last few months, running roughly 50-60km a week, gradually increasing the distance but keeping below the same heart rate. I have never done any kind of base building before, I've always gone from running about 5km a week straight into marathon training of 60km+ per week. Luckily I've avoided injury. I've run all my previous (6) marathons this way, zero prep - just straight into the plan.
My fastest previous marathon was a 3:15 in 2018 following Hanson's plan. I've run a few since, last year I did a 3:28 with zero base a 14 week minimal (3 runs a week) plan.
So this year I figured I'll take it more seriously, aim for a faster finish and actually do some prep. What I had in mind was to add in a few months of low heart rate training and eventually combine that with another go at Hanson's but with a sub 3 pace this time.
Today I read this article - , and realised I had no idea what my threshold pace was. I own a HRM (chest strap) and my Garmin watch comes with a lactate threshold guided test. I also checked out a few videos of people performing this test and it seemed to be the case that you ran increasingly faster and faster until in the last section you were left gasping for breath by the end.
I'm just back from running the test and I'm wondering whether to bother continue with the sub 3 plan. According to that article:
You want to have a threshold of around 3:50 - 4min/km (6:10 - 6:26min/mi), which is about a 39min 10km or 1:26min half marathon.
And it turns out my threshold pace is 4:49 according to the Garmin! But the article goes on to say:
If you cannot run a sub 40min 10km, you have next to no chance of running sub 3hrs.
I've never run a timed 10k race that I can recall but my fastest 10k distance is 39 mins which I ran last year during another marathon.
What I did notice while running was that getting up to roughly 4:10 pace wasn't particularly easy but neither did I find it felt difficult to maintain once I got there.
According to that article I haven't a hope of running a sub 3. The only possibility is that I haven't started a plan yet, have done zero speed work at all for months. By the end of the Garmin test I was not out of breath or feeling particularly taxed by the test at all. I had to push hard to get my heart rate up.
Forgot to mention - I'm a male in their late 40s.
Second important thing I'm forgetting - timeline. Marathon is in late Oct this year.
I'm confused an disheartened to be honest.
Read about Mariko Yugeta and her story. Join a local running club (not a beer drinking "run crew" idiot fest - an actual training group). If you can't join a club due to your area or maybe their schedule doesn't work with yours, consider getting a coach but don't over pay and do your research on the coach and ask for examples of athletes they have coached to success).
As a late 40s male, I've gotten better every year after turning 40. I still have expectations that I'll get faster, but maybe I've hit my peak. That said, you want to be doing a ton of running. If you have other stuff in your life, put it aside for now.
I've always gone from running about 5km a week straight into marathon training
This isn't going to fly. You need to be running year round, building your base in between cycles. 50-60km per week is bare minimum. Just keep at it; it's not the most exciting thing, but base miles will do wonders.
fastest 10k distance is 39 mins which I ran last year during another marathon.
The marathon is about pacing. You can't run your 10k PR in a marathon and expect to perform well. Also, you can't use a 10k to predict you marathon. Plan to do a half 6-7 weeks before you marathon. If you can get around 1:25 on a 90% effort, you have a shot at sub 3.
I have had a sub 3 marathon in mind for a while now and have been building up my base with zone 2 runs over the last few months, running roughly 50-60km a week, gradually increasing the distance but keeping below the same heart rate. I have never done any kind of base building before, I've always gone from running about 5km a week straight into marathon training of 60km+ per week. Luckily I've avoided injury. I've run all my previous (6) marathons this way, zero prep - just straight into the plan.
My fastest previous marathon was a 3:15 in 2018 following Hanson's plan. I've run a few since, last year I did a 3:28 with zero base a 14 week minimal (3 runs a week) plan.
So this year I figured I'll take it more seriously, aim for a faster finish and actually do some prep. What I had in mind was to add in a few months of low heart rate training and eventually combine that with another go at Hanson's but with a sub 3 pace this time.
Today I read this article - , and realised I had no idea what my threshold pace was. I own a HRM (chest strap) and my Garmin watch comes with a lactate threshold guided test. I also checked out a few videos of people performing this test and it seemed to be the case that you ran increasingly faster and faster until in the last section you were left gasping for breath by the end.
I'm just back from running the test and I'm wondering whether to bother continue with the sub 3 plan. According to that article:
You want to have a threshold of around 3:50 - 4min/km (6:10 - 6:26min/mi), which is about a 39min 10km or 1:26min half marathon.
And it turns out my threshold pace is 4:49 according to the Garmin! But the article goes on to say:
If you cannot run a sub 40min 10km, you have next to no chance of running sub 3hrs.
I've never run a timed 10k race that I can recall but my fastest 10k distance is 39 mins which I ran last year during another marathon.
What I did notice while running was that getting up to roughly 4:10 pace wasn't particularly easy but neither did I find it felt difficult to maintain once I got there.
According to that article I haven't a hope of running a sub 3. The only possibility is that I haven't started a plan yet, have done zero speed work at all for months. By the end of the Garmin test I was not out of breath or feeling particularly taxed by the test at all. I had to push hard to get my heart rate up.
Forgot to mention - I'm a male in their late 40s.
Second important thing I'm forgetting - timeline. Marathon is in late Oct this year.
I'm confused an disheartened to be honest.
Do not, repeat DO NOT rely on Garmin figures.
I'm 66-years-old and based on percentage of heart rate from training it tells me I could run a 17:30ish 5k (which would be somewhere around a world-record), and that was after I'd raced a 5k in 19:49.
For older runners particularly, it likely under-estimates the age related decline in power.
Looking at McMillan you would need a 38:22 10k and 1:25:30 half-marathon to break 3:00
Why are people beating around the bush. Op your threshold isn’t 4:50. Based on your times, it’s likely 4:00 to 4:20 currently based on just easy workouts and will drop down during marathon training.
Go to a parkrun this Saturday and run it all out. That will give you a better idea regarding fitness.
This post was edited 56 seconds after it was posted.
Looking at McMillan you would need a 38:22 10k and 1:25:30 half-marathon to break 3:00
Out of interest how do people interpret these requirements? I couldn't run a 38 10km right now but I'd be pretty confident of achieving it closer to the end of marathon training plan when I've upped the speed components. I've always read these as being loose requirements, or put another way - you need to be able to achieve a 38.22 10km before the end of your training rather than back when you're deciding the goal. Maybe that's bass ackwards though.
Exactly. You got this bud. Focus on consistency and slow build in mileage, and work in basic strength (core, bodyweight stuff for posterior chain) and you'll be ready by October no doubt. Remember, staying healthy and consistent is the MOST important piece. But, the gains for you will no doubt be in your mileage increase.
So the key, like a lot of posters have already pointed out, is the slow build. For strength, if you're not doing it already, even just 2x 15 mins a week will be a big addition for you.
O ya and forgot to comment this. Free the thigh is completely right. Online calculators are meaningless. Based on the times your threshold is probably more like 4:15. You can try 5k up to 10k tempo at that pace and see how you feel and recover (ideally you could race a a couple 5ks and 10ks to get a good feel for it). Also you could try 1km and 2km repeats on speed days at that pace though I suspect your 1km repeats should be a little faster.
If only those articles/papers/guides were 100% correct all the time. Plus the fact that your measurements are not 100% either. Up your z2 mileage, add a little speed work, see what you get. Without trying, you'll never know what your limit is.
Looking at McMillan you would need a 38:22 10k and 1:25:30 half-marathon to break 3:00
Out of interest how do people interpret these requirements? I couldn't run a 38 10km right now but I'd be pretty confident of achieving it closer to the end of marathon training plan when I've upped the speed components. I've always read these as being loose requirements, or put another way - you need to be able to achieve a 38.22 10km before the end of your training rather than back when you're deciding the goal. Maybe that's bass ackwards though.
They are based on pb times and assume equal fitness (but not specificity).
ie if you can run a 38 minute 10k after proper training you should be able to run a sub 3 after proper training. It doesn’t mean you need to be able to run them at the same time, nor theoretically should you due to different training requirements.
An extra thing to keep in mind though, is that many runners find the calculation over estimates their marathon ability to due to a lack of endurance.
True on the endurance factor in these estimates. I was best at 800-3000m and my (very even paced) marathon was about 15 minutes outside what my 5000m would have indicated...
The common denominator here is definitely more miles. Currently my easy runs are in the 9:00 - 9:30 mile range. With a little push I can easily make that 8:30 which is where I think I need to be. Combine that with about 5 months of 50-60 MPW I might have a chance at this I think.
A sub-1:25 half marathon runner should be able to break 3:00 on a good build with a months of 50-60mpw, definitely. (Building in the right long runs, workouts etc.)
Lots of good replies here, I think it's possible with the information you have given.
The garmin threshold pace is not reliable at all, garmin keeps telling me really slow threshold paces compared to what I am running in races. You need to do a threshold test of some sort or rely on your HM racepace minus a couple seconds (depending on how close to the 1hr you are).
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