Thanks for sharing this article. It’s nice to see increasing recognition that super shoes have damaged the sport. Anyone who runs 3:59 with the benefit of super shoes and calls themselves a sub-4 miler is fooling themselves. In reality, they are just a 4:03 miler who had a tech boost.
Chep’s not running 12:35 or 26:11 without super shoes. Kipchoge is not running 1:59:40 or 2:01:09 without super shoes. Period.
Changing the goalposts. The thread started about how the sub-4 mile is being diminished, not about the marathon, an event where high stack shoes like the vaporfly are allowed, (they’re not on the track in professional sports).
Even in the 5K, with all the improvements to the track surface, and all the improvements to training in our scientific knowledge, 8/10 fastest times were recorded like 20 to 30 years ago.
I have no problem seeing your point. I suppose was trying to prove a point that nobody was even contesting. Point taken.
The mile was on a slow fade already before this, rubberized tracks just made it too easy and tracks shorter than 440y made it obscure. Once HS kids started going sub-4 indoors, it was obsolete as a yardstick. Only cultish dorks care about it anymore. Leave the mile in irrelevance, no need to bring it back because it was already gone well before the advent of supershoes.
There's no evidence that track spikes used in Cheptegei's records have the major effect of Kipchoge's 1:59:40 road shoes--which themselves are illegal on the roads now.
That’s called “the apex of the era of undetectable EPO”
I was waiting for this sort of comment. So which is it: are all the hallowed records of the 80s and 90s falling to super shoes in the 1500m/mile, or were all those athletes so dirty back in the day that inprovements in shoe tech are insignificant in comparison?
You actually need to ask this question? Of course the maximum benefit from PEDs is greater then the maximum benefit from shoes. And thus you see the big difference in times at levels that weren't dominated by huge PED use in the past, like high school and college. It isn't hard to figure out.
I was waiting for this sort of comment. So which is it: are all the hallowed records of the 80s and 90s falling to super shoes in the 1500m/mile, or were all those athletes so dirty back in the day that inprovements in shoe tech are insignificant in comparison?
You actually need to ask this question? Of course the maximum benefit from PEDs is greater then the maximum benefit from shoes. And thus you see the big difference in times at levels that weren't dominated by huge PED use in the past, like high school and college. It isn't hard to figure out.
I shall add that judging the effects of shoes by looking at the pros will always be hard because there is most likely always some level of PED use, and a back and forth on what is the current state of the best new PED versus testing for it. Better to a look at HS and even college where the overall effect of PEDs is much less.
There's no evidence that track spikes used in Cheptegei's records have the major effect of Kipchoge's 1:59:40 road shoes--which themselves are illegal on the roads now.
The spikes are here to stay but, we will soon see the high stack road shoes confined to road races. The NFHS is strongly considering a stack height limit of 28mm to eliminate carbon plated road flats from high school meets and record consideration.
as a hs runner who races in supershoes, source pls?
You actually need to ask this question? Of course the maximum benefit from PEDs is greater then the maximum benefit from shoes. And thus you see the big difference in times at levels that weren't dominated by huge PED use in the past, like high school and college. It isn't hard to figure out.
I shall add that judging the effects of shoes by looking at the pros will always be hard because there is most likely always some level of PED use, and a back and forth on what is the current state of the best new PED versus testing for it. Better to a look at HS and even college where the overall effect of PEDs is much less.
Eh, it’s tough because you’ve also got better nutrition, training, coaching, etc. Kids have more access to information. Not saying shoes don’t matter at all, but comparing them to an airlift grossly exaggerates how much dragonflys elevate your mile time.
I actually don’t know the answer to this, so maybe you can tell me. If things like shotput and all the other field events where shoes don’t matter much have not improved performance averages in HS/college and only things on the track have, then I’d be more open-minded to the case you’re making.
I shall add that judging the effects of shoes by looking at the pros will always be hard because there is most likely always some level of PED use, and a back and forth on what is the current state of the best new PED versus testing for it. Better to a look at HS and even college where the overall effect of PEDs is much less.
Eh, it’s tough because you’ve also got better nutrition, training, coaching, etc. Kids have more access to information. Not saying shoes don’t matter at all, but comparing them to an airlift grossly exaggerates how much dragonflys elevate your mile time.
I actually don’t know the answer to this, so maybe you can tell me. If things like shotput and all the other field events where shoes don’t matter much have not improved performance averages in HS/college and only things on the track have, then I’d be more open-minded to the case you’re making.
That is a valid question that I had to do some quick research on. My belief that the shoes are improving HS times is based on the fact I follow the CA SS mostly, and athletic.net has pretty complete data for the last decade on top performances. A simple way to measure this is to look at the 25th best mark for a given year ( to adjust for outliers). Distance times were pretty stagnant from 2014 until last year. Last year times were a little faster than ever in just about every way to measure the top 25 (all grades, each individual grade). This year they are as well. You could try to say that was population increase, but my understanding is track and field participation as a whole is not significantly higher than before. So did nutrition, training and coaching just get better these last 2 years. Well, as you suggested I looked the shot put, and these last 2 years have a 25th best mark that is worse than any of the non-covid years for a decade. The discus also has worse marks than through the 201x's. these last 2 years. So what is the explanation for those getting worse? Nutrition is worse? Training is worse? The 100m and 200m times look stagnant. Better than some past years, worse than others.
I agree that the airlift compression is a ridiculous comparison. Looking at the data, it looks like 1-2 seconds improvement in the 1600m, and about 4 seconds in the 3200m directly tied to the last 2 years. What changed specifically and only in the last 2 years? And why is it only distance running?
All this talk about super shoes, Roger Bannister, and diminishing the fastest mile times… and yet the world records for the both of mile and the 1500 m on them inside haven’t been broken in 25 years. Even on the women’s side, both records are only a fraction of a second faster than they were in the 90s
And yet the 5,000m and 10,000m for both male and female have been bettered in the past 3 years (Since the spikes were introduced).
I don't know why you choose to cherry pick the 1500m - but the records mentioned above were considered unbeatable for a very long time.
Not to mention, El Guerrouj was a generational talent (who was likely also using EPO), and Dibaba had the pedigree and the season of her life (and was also likely using EPO) when she took down the women's WR.
All this talk about super shoes, Roger Bannister, and diminishing the fastest mile times… and yet the world records for the both of mile and the 1500 m on them inside haven’t been broken in 25 years. Even on the women’s side, both records are only a fraction of a second faster than they were in the 90s
That’s called “the apex of the era of undetectable EPO”
Yikes, CoachB, with this attitude, you shouldn't be coaching young athletes.
All this talk about super shoes, Roger Bannister, and diminishing the fastest mile times… and yet the world records for the both of mile and the 1500 m on them inside haven’t been broken in 25 years. Even on the women’s side, both records are only a fraction of a second faster than they were in the 90s
Drug testing is getting better. I’d wager that athletes are cleaner now than they were in the 90’s and early 2000’s. I think El G in super shoes runs 3:39 for a mile.
The spikes are here to stay but, we will soon see the high stack road shoes confined to road races. The NFHS is strongly considering a stack height limit of 28mm to eliminate carbon plated road flats from high school meets and record consideration.
I thought that barefoot running was the secret to unlocking the ancient art of the Achilles tendon recoil which was the key to the Kenyans success . How can something as unnatural as shoe technology be better? Isn’t more shoe gonna cause injuries and heel striking?
It is being discussed in committee and polling has gone out to coaches from the NFHS. The rules, if changed, would conform to World Athletics rules. The newer spikes like Dragonfly would be legal but high stack road shoes like Vaporfly Next%, Alphafly, Meta Sky, Adi Zero Adios Pro, etc. would no longer be allowed on the track.
Don’t ignore population - high school total student pop will peak this year at a record 17 mil - that’s about 700k more than the last peak in mid 2000’s and about 1.5 million more than the big peak in the mid 70’s. There is much more than a passing correlation b/t high school pop and the track depth - though that corr is a little less so record times (since they are more outliers). I wouldn’t be surprised to see a dip in a few years as HS pop declines moderately.
All this talk about super shoes, Roger Bannister, and diminishing the fastest mile times… and yet the world records for the both of mile and the 1500 m on them inside haven’t been broken in 25 years. Even on the women’s side, both records are only a fraction of a second faster than they were in the 90s
Drug testing is getting better. I’d wager that athletes are cleaner now than they were in the 90’s and early 2000’s. I think El G in super shoes runs 3:39 for a mile.
It's just as easy to beat drug tests now as it was in the 90s. The only difference is the amount of timing.
Don’t ignore population - high school total student pop will peak this year at a record 17 mil - that’s about 700k more than the last peak in mid 2000’s and about 1.5 million more than the big peak in the mid 70’s. There is much more than a passing correlation b/t high school pop and the track depth - though that corr is a little less so record times (since they are more outliers). I wouldn’t be surprised to see a dip in a few years as HS pop declines moderately.
Which is offset by a decline in sports participation among the group.
Everyone, everywhere all got considerably faster at the same time. It’s the shoes!