If Ritz went for sub 4 we would hear about crazy stuff like 20*400m sub 60 and 2:59 1200m time trials followed by 6 miles of tempo. Then he would run 4:05 in the race and go in for surgery because he's been running on a torn hammy, broken foot and inflamed pelvis for a month.
If Ritz went for sub 4 we would hear about crazy stuff like 20*400m sub 60 and 2:59 1200m time trials followed by 6 miles of tempo. Then he would run 4:05 in the race and go in for surgery because he's been running on a torn hammy, broken foot and inflamed pelvis for a month.
Kenny B ran 7:25.7 for 3k. That is and average of sub-59.5 second laps for 7.5 laps. I without looking up the actual splits I think we can credit him with an in-route sub4. His 3:32 1500 also indicates such.
If you run sub-4 pace for more than a mile, then it is a mathematical necessity that there is a 1-mile interval in there that was sub-4. Now if you want to be pedantic about the rules, it should be the first mile to account for a standing start.
I did this calculation YEARS ago here, and it is undebatable that he ran a sub 4 mile from a starting position during his 2k run. You can find the lap splits, and see that at 1600 he was well under 4, and from the video he obviously didn't come to a stop in next 9.3 meters, so he definitely ran sub 4 in that first mile. It might have even been around 3:55.
Ritz is probably the best US distance runner to never break 4 in the mile.
This is the most interesting part of your post IMO. Given his 8:11/12:56/60:00/2:07:47 PRs there’s definitely an argument to be made for him, but Meb (2nd & 4th in Olympic marathons, wins in NYC and Boston) and Hall (59:43/2:06:17/2:04:58*) might have something to say about it, not to mention older guys like Shorter, Virgin, Rodgers, Salazar, Mills. In fact, I bet Craig Virgin is lacing up his trainers in pursuit of this distinction as we type.
With all respect I find the rest of the discussion a little boring. No, he couldn’t do it now if he tried; yes, he would have been well under in peak 5k shape; and the Bekele talk is even more dull, we all know he was likely about a 3:48 guy in his prime.
This post vastly underestimates how hard it is run sub 4 at 40. Based on a quick Google search, 3 people in history have done it. All three were multi-time Olympians in the 1500, and all of them were guys who basically never stopped racing. Two of the three were all-time greats (Coghlan, Lagat). The idea that a non miler who has stopped training competitively could just pick it up and run a sub 4 because they looked good in a YouTube video is nonsense.
I mean, look at how tough it was for Nick Willis to run his last sub-4 at 38. Nick's an absolute monster of the distance. And it would take everything he's got to do it. Which is probably why he's not doing it anymore.
Ritz was one of the best US distance runners ever. But he's not a miler and he never was. He's not running a sub 4 ever again.
Kenny B ran 7:25.7 for 3k. That is and average of sub-59.5 second laps for 7.5 laps. I without looking up the actual splits I think we can credit him with an in-route sub4. His 3:32 1500 also indicates such.
If you run sub-4 pace for more than a mile, then it is a mathematical necessity that there is a 1-mile interval in there that was sub-4. Now if you want to be pedantic about the rules, it should be the first mile to account for a standing start.
This is actually not true, although for practical purposes I'm fine with it. For example, consider the following 200m splits for a 3k, and assume the runner was even-paced during every 200m (let's consider a 4:00 1600 instead of a mile for clarity, although the same thing works):
Total time is 7:28.3, but the fastest 1600m is 4:00.1
If you want to leave the bounds of human performance, we could make this much more extreme e.g.
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4:00, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
That's a 4:14 3k with no 1600m faster than 4:07.
The correct statement is that you are mathematically guaranteed to have run a sub-4:00 mile if you have run a race of at least n miles in less than 4n minutes. So if someone ever runs a sub-12:00 5k, they will certainly have run a 4:00 mil en route, but even a 12:01 5k wouldn't be guaranteed to contain a sub-4 mile.
Of course, in reality, it would be very difficult to run a 7:25 3k without running a 4:00 mile somewhere in the middle.
He has run sub 4 at the end of some of his 5,000m races and possibly some of the short course XC wins. I know you can't officially count them since they are flying starts but don't forget he has the indoor 2k WR, so he ran a low 3:50x mile from the gun, so that has to count. But yea good point. It would be epic to see Bekele run sub 4 as a masters. He is literally the same age as Lolo Jones and she is running WRs now as a master's.
This is the most interesting part of your post IMO. Given his 8:11/12:56/60:00/2:07:47 PRs there’s definitely an argument to be made for him, but Meb (2nd & 4th in Olympic marathons, wins in NYC and Boston) and Hall (59:43/2:06:17/2:04:58*) might have something to say about it, not to mention older guys like Shorter, Virgin, Rodgers, Salazar, Mills. In fact, I bet Craig Virgin is lacing up his trainers in pursuit of this distinction as we type.
With all respect I find the rest of the discussion a little boring. No, he couldn’t do it now if he tried; yes, he would have been well under in peak 5k shape; and the Bekele talk is even more dull, we all know he was likely about a 3:48 guy in his prime.
Classic JWH, always spittin in your posts. I agree with all of this pretty much. I think there's almost no chance he could break 4, but if he publicly started training for it I think it would be one of the most fun things to watch that year so long as he was healthy and got a good race in, regardless of his finishing time.
I left out Hall because I just assumed he broke 4 at some point since he ran 3:42 in HS. It's really close between them, but I think I'd give Ritz the nod. I think if they both raced in their prime, Ritz would be the favorite 10k and below, and Hall would be for the marathon. I think if they went head-to-head in the half when they were at their best, it would've been a race for the ages.
I think Meb is the better argument just because it's hard to argue against Olympic Silver and WMM golds. Originally my post said "definitely if you count sub-4 equivalents" but I took it out because it wasn't that important to my post, but I wish I'd kept it since Meb did run 3:42.3.
As for all the old guys, I left them out because their racing happened so long ago that I think you can only really judge them on how their times stack up to Ritz, and he was faster.
This is the most interesting part of your post IMO. Given his 8:11/12:56/60:00/2:07:47 PRs there’s definitely an argument to be made for him, but Meb (2nd & 4th in Olympic marathons, wins in NYC and Boston) and Hall (59:43/2:06:17/2:04:58*) might have something to say about it, not to mention older guys like Shorter, Virgin, Rodgers, Salazar, Mills. In fact, I bet Craig Virgin is lacing up his trainers in pursuit of this distinction as we type.
With all respect I find the rest of the discussion a little boring. No, he couldn’t do it now if he tried; yes, he would have been well under in peak 5k shape; and the Bekele talk is even more dull, we all know he was likely about a 3:48 guy in his prime.
Classic JWH, always spittin in your posts. I agree with all of this pretty much. I think there's almost no chance he could break 4, but if he publicly started training for it I think it would be one of the most fun things to watch that year so long as he was healthy and got a good race in, regardless of his finishing time.
I left out Hall because I just assumed he broke 4 at some point since he ran 3:42 in HS. It's really close between them, but I think I'd give Ritz the nod. I think if they both raced in their prime, Ritz would be the favorite 10k and below, and Hall would be for the marathon. I think if they went head-to-head in the half when they were at their best, it would've been a race for the ages.
I think Meb is the better argument just because it's hard to argue against Olympic Silver and WMM golds. Originally my post said "definitely if you count sub-4 equivalents" but I took it out because it wasn't that important to my post, but I wish I'd kept it since Meb did run 3:42.3.
As for all the old guys, I left them out because their racing happened so long ago that I think you can only really judge them on how their times stack up to Ritz, and he was faster.
They did race in the their prime. 2008 Olympic marathon.
I've been wondering who is the oldest guy to break 4:00 for the mile for the first time? Maybe getting this answer will provide hope and motivation to me and others. I am a post college guy with a desire to really train hard,...
I mean, look at how tough it was for Nick Willis to run his last sub-4 at 38. Nick's an absolute monster of the distance. And it would take everything he's got to do it. Which is probably why he's not doing it anymore.
Ritz was one of the best US distance runners ever. But he's not a miler and he never was. He's not running a sub 4 ever again.
I read the OP and thought, yeah that would be cool. Then I saw your Nick Willis example and reality hit me. Yeah, there's no way in hell Ritz will ever come within striking distance of sub 4.
I'd bet a large sum amount of money that he couldn't do it. With age you lose the speed, and even in the longer stuff 3-4 years ago in the marathon he wasn't running great, and now he's a few years older and hasn't even been training. No way he would be able to run sub 4 a year from now. It's been a decade since he ran track races, and even then in his last track season he was probably 'only' in 3:56 shape. He's too far removed from it to ever run sub 4.
yeah but it's boring to say that the 40 year old guy can't break 4 for the first time in his life. But, he wasn't running well in the marathon bc he couldn't handle the mileage. He doesn't need 100mpw for the mile though. He may have lost speed due to his age, but he has an insane engine from doing high mileage for over a decade. He doesn't need Hocker level leg speed, his legs just need to be able to handle 60s 400s. You could look at a few years off of training as a downside, but you could also see it as his body finally getting time to fully recover.
But he has run multiple times sub 4 the last mile of 5000m races and I’m pretty sure he has done so even in the last Mi of a 10,000m race more than twice.
King Bekele is simply the best long distance runner of all times. Imagine him running on super shoes when he was in his early 20’s.
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