most d1 running and swimming programs incorporate some sort of weightlifting days for their athletes. If weightlifting were counterproductive, I doubt it’d be so ubiquitous at the high/elite levels
It’s not ubiquitous at high/elite levels except in America. Which has more to do with our cultural baggage than performance. If you think that’s a stretch, observe Ryan Hall’s obvious body image issues despite his outstanding performance.
* Do you consider Great Britain "America East?" * Do you consider Morocco "America East?" H. el G. total body weight trainer. * Do you consider all sub-10 100m male sprinters and all sub-11 female 100m sprinters Honorary Americans?
It’s not ubiquitous at high/elite levels except in America. Which has more to do with our cultural baggage than performance. If you think that’s a stretch, observe Ryan Hall’s obvious body image issues despite his outstanding performance.
* Do you consider Great Britain "America East?" * Do you consider Morocco "America East?" H. el G. total body weight trainer. * Do you consider all sub-10 100m male sprinters and all sub-11 female 100m sprinters Honorary Americans?
Sprinting is obviously a completely different matter, which should be pretty obvious unless you’re just trying to pick a fight.
if we’re holding up Seb Coe, one athlete, squatting 1.5x his body weight as an example of serious strength training, uh, ok. There’s a girl in my gym (who looks to be about 160 lbs) squatting 300 and she started earlier this year.
* Do you consider Great Britain "America East?" * Do you consider Morocco "America East?" H. el G. total body weight trainer. * Do you consider all sub-10 100m male sprinters and all sub-11 female 100m sprinters Honorary Americans?
Sprinting is obviously a completely different matter, which should be pretty obvious unless you’re just trying to pick a fight.
if we’re holding up Seb Coe, one athlete, squatting 1.5x his body weight as an example of serious strength training, uh, ok. There’s a girl in my gym (who looks to be about 160 lbs) squatting 300 and she started earlier this year.
I don't know about picking a fight? Doesn't the current 1500m world championship do total body weight training?
Lifting or running. It’s impossible to seriously train both (this is where the powerlifters with 5:40 mile times or the runners who do body weight squats and pull-ups object)
This could be exactly right or totally wrong depending on intention. Can you be training huge miles a week in the single minded pursuit of maxing out every ounce of your potential in running while lifting seriously? No. No you cannot.
However, I think you could be close to 80% of your potential in running while still pursuing significant strength gains.
Stronglifts 5x5 has you squatting 3 days a week with a 5lb increase every lift. That basically means you have to be recovering between every session or you will just be sore all the time. If you want to have a more balanced approach, I would recommend doing a hard workout or long run in the morning and then doing either squats or deadlifts in the afternoon. This way your hard days are very hard but then you still get enough recovery.
As for sets and volume, on deadlift I would ramp up to a single hard set of 5 reps. On squat maybe 3 sets of 5. Squat once a week, deadlift once a week, add 5lbs/ week. However, start at 45 lbs for both. Even if you're a beginner. Let progressive overload take it's course.
As for my credentials, I ran stronglifts 5x5 till my squats were 5x5 at 305 and my deadlift was 405. Now I'm running 5,3,1 and my squat is 405, deadlift is 455, and I'm looking to hit 500 on deadlift before the end of the year. Then maybe I'll try for the fabled sub-5 mile 500lb lift club.
You know it's ok to just do a few reps of fairly light weight. 6-10 Reps with just the bar and a couple of 10lb plates or maybe 25-35 lbs plates. You don't have to do those crazy workouts you see people doing on YouTube. I have a bar with a couple of 25lb plates on it where I live and I do a few squats with it every day. I am sure it makes me stronger than I would be otherwise.
You want to get some degree of DOMS (muscle soreness) after a heavy weight session. That will start to subside 2 days later. But probably you wont be back to 100% until 1-2 weeks later. If you feel great the day after a leg workout in the gym, the workout probably wasnt productive enough to bother with it.
Same principle as running a marathon at race pace. The next day you wont be in any condition to run hard again, but your body will eventually heal back stronger.
You could be on to something. Maybe it's indicative of why Jordan Hasay hadn't improved. From her workouts she squats and dead-lifts and it's not necessary. She could be muscle fatigued and unaware. You don't always feel tired. But your muscles don't respond as quickly as you wish when you've done too much.
There is a balance to learn. If your goal is running then you have to figure out the type of lifting that results in increased strength without unnecessary soreness.
Let's say your 5 rep max for a front squat is 135lb. Try this:
set 1: bar x 10, 60s rest
set 2: 95 x 5, 120s rest
set 3: 115 x 5, 2-3min rest
set 4: 135 x 5 poor gho
The following week aim for 6 reps on the last set. Once you can do 6 repps, add 5lbs on the next workoutu and try for 4 reps. Next workout go for 5, then 6, etc. So the p okrogression is auto-regulating. You stay in that 4-6 rep range. As you get stronger changes become harder to make and may take weeks, or you work on the quality of the rep, or you move to a 3-5 rep range.
Alan
Could my soreness just be due to not having done these lifts in years? Shouldn't there be an unavoidable period where you body has to adapt to these new exercises, where you’ll inevitably be sore before your body gets used to it?
You can avoid a ton of soreness by building slowly. Maybe you can 5x5x150 and be super sore and struggle to run well. Or do like 3x5x90 and you might feel it but still be able to run fine the next day. And then over a build up to that 150 over say 6 weeks. Once you are in shape you need to find out how much soreness from lifting you want to take on..
Lifting or running. It’s impossible to seriously train both (this is where the powerlifters with 5:40 mile times or the runners who do body weight squats and pull-ups object)
This could be exactly right or totally wrong depending on intention. Can you be training huge miles a week in the single minded pursuit of maxing out every ounce of your potential in running while lifting seriously? No. No you cannot.
However, I think you could be close to 80% of your potential in running while still pursuing significant strength gains.
80% is like running 17mins instead of 15 for a 5k. It is a pretty big (although you can argue meaningless) difference. Obviously a lot depends on what you mean by significant gains. If you just want to run say 20mpw and gain like 10lbs of muscle, that is pretty doable. Want to run 80mpw and gain 30lbs of muscle and that is rough. Each alone are pretty doable (well might take 5 years) but together will be almost impossible.
The sort of gym work that is suitable for someone who is primarily a runner is not the same as for someone who is primarily lifting to build strength.
For a runner, the gym is anciliary and shouldn't negatively affect anything else. People will often schedule it for a day they class as a recovery day from running.
For a lifter, the gym is the priority and they will spend the next 48hrs+ recovering and getting ready to go again.
Flip it around and think of a bodybuilder wanting to incorporate running to help cut weight... are you going to dive into a 60 mile week with 20x400m off a minute? Of course not.
You cannot do the same thing as a typical gym-goer. Personally, I think a runner's gym work can be done in 45 minutes.
The changes in laboratory-based parameters related to distance-running performance were consistent with the changes in competition times for women but only partly for men. Our data indicate that women should include heavy-res...
Are you maximizing the volume and intensity of your running? Do you have the time, energy, and available resources to conduct heavy strength training and/or plyometrics? If so then heavy resistance training and plyometrics can be a benefit as it will improve running economy and possibly reduce injury. It's all a balance.
Obviously if you are sore enough for it to negatively affect your running you need to do less. Your lifting volume x weight is too much. Either do fewer sets, use less weight, or do a ladder type workout as far as weight goes in which you warm up and cool down during those 5 sets so you're only hitting max weight on the third and maybe fourth set.
There is no rule you have to do the 5x5 workout. It is affecting your running so change your lifting regimen to stop hurting your running.
Are you maximizing the volume and intensity of your running? Do you have the time, energy, and available resources to conduct heavy strength training and/or plyometrics? If so then heavy resistance training and plyometrics can be a benefit as it will improve running economy and possibly reduce injury. It's all a balance.
Alan
From the first article
Our data indicate that women should include heavy-resistance training in their programs, but men should be cautious about using it in season until more research establishes whether certain men are positive or negative responders.
Which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. The second article is recommending
Specifically, they recommend lifting loads at 60%-80% of one-repetition maximum, or the heaviest weight that can be lifted with maximum effort in a single repetition, for three to six sets of 5-15 reps. For distance runners, training to repetition failure is not recommended, they add.
Which is sort of medium weight for medium reps. A lot like the 3x10 of 80s. 🤣
I have never seen a study really pushing high reps.
The numbers I always wanted to see is what happens with the second cycle. It is clear people need to do some strength work as a distance guy. What isn't as clear is if you keep getting noticeable gains after 3 months of training. After I get my squat to say 1.5x BW, should I keep pushing for 2x or should I go into more of a maintenance mode?
Granted this is true of most no one is going to sign up for a 2 year study..
Are you maximizing the volume and intensity of your running? Do you have the time, energy, and available resources to conduct heavy strength training and/or plyometrics? If so then heavy resistance training and plyometrics can be a benefit as it will improve running economy and possibly reduce injury. It's all a balance.
Alan
From the first article
Our data indicate that women should include heavy-resistance training in their programs, but men should be cautious about using it in season until more research establishes whether certain men are positive or negative responders.
Which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. The second article is recommending
Specifically, they recommend lifting loads at 60%-80% of one-repetition maximum, or the heaviest weight that can be lifted with maximum effort in a single repetition, for three to six sets of 5-15 reps. For distance runners, training to repetition failure is not recommended, they add.
Which is sort of medium weight for medium reps. A lot like the 3x10 of 80s. 🤣
I have never seen a study really pushing high reps.
The numbers I always wanted to see is what happens with the second cycle. It is clear people need to do some strength work as a distance guy. What isn't as clear is if you keep getting noticeable gains after 3 months of training. After I get my squat to say 1.5x BW, should I keep pushing for 2x or should I go into more of a maintenance mode?
Granted this is true of most no one is going to sign up for a 2 year study..
Boo Schexnayder, coordinator and teacher of USTFCCCA's strength programs doesnt see any benefit for sprinters trying to squat more than 2x body weight. Certainly distance runners aren't expected to do the same. He also does not recommend much squatting at all after the first half of a macrocycle. He's also a big advocate of plyos and olympuc lifting starting very early in a cycle. I understand he's not the only voice in this field but he is track and field's strength and power guru.
the issue is that you are going straight into weightlifting without a slow build up. soreness in the legs are guaranteed to make you run slower. if you had put maybe 50% effort in the gym the first day, 60% the next, 70% after that, .................etc, you would avoid getting sore. i also want to point out that you should not enter the gym as a bodybuilder. you should do some weightlifting to supplement on gains that you can't get from running, but the goal is not to reach peak fitness level on the weights.
Our data indicate that women should include heavy-resistance training in their programs, but men should be cautious about using it in season until more research establishes whether certain men are positive or negative responders.
Which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. The second article is recommending
Specifically, they recommend lifting loads at 60%-80% of one-repetition maximum, or the heaviest weight that can be lifted with maximum effort in a single repetition, for three to six sets of 5-15 reps. For distance runners, training to repetition failure is not recommended, they add.
Which is sort of medium weight for medium reps. A lot like the 3x10 of 80s. 🤣
I have never seen a study really pushing high reps.
The numbers I always wanted to see is what happens with the second cycle. It is clear people need to do some strength work as a distance guy. What isn't as clear is if you keep getting noticeable gains after 3 months of training. After I get my squat to say 1.5x BW, should I keep pushing for 2x or should I go into more of a maintenance mode?
Granted this is true of most no one is going to sign up for a 2 year study..
Boo Schexnayder, coordinator and teacher of USTFCCCA's strength programs doesnt see any benefit for sprinters trying to squat more than 2x body weight. Certainly distance runners aren't expected to do the same. He also does not recommend much squatting at all after the first half of a macrocycle. He's also a big advocate of plyos and olympuc lifting starting very early in a cycle. I understand he's not the only voice in this field but he is track and field's strength and power guru.
Plyos are great.
O-lifts require too much technique training but explosive lifts are great.
I doubt there are many if any distance runners ever who are squatting 1.5x BW much less 2x. Ditto for sprinters not ingesting Ben Johnson level anabolics.
Boo Schexnayder, coordinator and teacher of USTFCCCA's strength programs doesnt see any benefit for sprinters trying to squat more than 2x body weight. Certainly distance runners aren't expected to do the same. He also does not recommend much squatting at all after the first half of a macrocycle. He's also a big advocate of plyos and olympuc lifting starting very early in a cycle. I understand he's not the only voice in this field but he is track and field's strength and power guru.
Plyos are great.
O-lifts require too much technique training but explosive lifts are great.
I doubt there are many if any distance runners ever who are squatting 1.5x BW much less 2x. Ditto for sprinters not ingesting Ben Johnson level anabolics.
Alan
The elite athletes are taught correctly. It's also the reason why the USTFCCCA track coaches developed a specific training program for track and field athletes. Their O lift and power lift variations are a bit different from competitive lifters.
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