Cross country only. I think Nico over Verzbicas. Nico was so big that he kind of changed the game. It was the start of a new era and we have been seeing kids from all over the country really step up their game since Nico graduated. His senior year he was so much better than everyone else that everyone knew he would win nationals and he dominated them over a insanely stacked field at NXN in the mud and set a course record. In the mud at nationals...course record. Verzbicas was such a beast and undefeated in XC but I think that he lacked the amount of heart that Nico had. Obviously Ritz is 3rd. Then I'd say Sahlman 4th but I know there's a lot of guys deserving of that #4 ranking.
1. Nico
2. Verzbicas
3. Ritz
4. Sahlman
In about two and a half months this will no longer be a question. No one will be asking who the second greatest is either.
But for now, I think there's a pool of guys who all could have a case made for being the greatest, although it's pretty difficult to argue for one specific guy being the best. My list would be: Virgin, Ritz, Fernandez, Verzbicas, Fisher, Nico, and Sahlman. There are plenty of things you could say/argue to flip this order one way or another to make your argument for who's on top, but that seems like a bit of a fool's errend. I'm a fool though so here goes.
Sahlman was 10 seconds off Nicos woodbridge record, and was 2 second's off Fernandez' Woodward park record. He's out.
Virgin's Illinois state meet course record was bested by Methner, who was beat by over 14 seconds by Nico at NXN.
Fisher, although a back to back national champ, never really ran fast enough, or beat impressive enough competition to place him at the top.
Lukas verzbicas is the same deal. Extremely impressive Footlocker, NXN, and Footlocket wins, but failed to break Virgins Detweiler park record, and failed to come close to the course records at either national meet.
Although his solo 14:24 was pretty insane, German Fernandez didn't really have any other all-time goat status races under his belt. He got 3rd (albeit sick) at Footlocker his senior year, and didn't even go to natties as a junior. Although the stuff he did accomplish was pretty impressive considering he was a year young.
There were also those two guys who ran 14:40/39 on Balboa, but those were kind of their only important performances so I don't think there up there with the rest.
This just leaves, imho, Nico and Ritz left in the discussion. Both of their senior seasons were pretty much without blemishes. Ritz got the 5k record on a fast course, Nico got the 3 mile. Ritz set the course record at nationals in Orlando (albeit his junior year), Nico set the NXN record. Both were undefeated. Both completely dusted their competition at every race, including future sub 4 guys. (Webb and Daschbach) Both completely ran away from the field at nationals. Really the only knocks I could give these guys were that Nico failed to get German's course record, and Ritz failed to get his own Orlando record, but both stated it was not their intention to go all out at either of those races, and they were holding back. The tiebreaker for me is Ritz' bronze medal at world juniors. This puts my ranking at
Ritz 1
Nico 2
the rest 3
Kinda funny how this isn't even a debate on the girls' side because Tuohy was so good.
Great writeup. I do want to add that in the discussion about who a "GOAT" of something is, influence is something that should be considered (and often is). Now, I'm on the younger side, so maybe one of the old heads here can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always felt like Nico Young opened the floodgates for what could be considered possible in high school running with his performances, moreso than Ritz did. High school runners have always gotten faster year after year, but as of recent Nico showed the US high school scene what dominance and excellence in cross country really looked like. Obviously this opinion carries a lot of recency bias, so take it with a grain of salt, but that's just always how I felt.
Nico doesn't belong on this list, next to legends Lukas V, Ritz, etc. His brothers I'm aware of, his school/coach as well, but I'd forgotten about him until he made his sexual preferences known.
2X winner. As a senior, won by a minute (largest margin of victory) and set the still-standing course record at Balboa. Beat some pretty good runners, including Deena Drossin, Amy Rudolph and Jenn Rhines.
2X winner. As a senior, won by a minute (largest margin of victory) and set the still-standing course record at Balboa. Beat some pretty good runners, including Deena Drossin, Amy Rudolph and Jenn Rhines.
Following up on this, Melody finished 2nd as a soph also in addition to winning the next two year. But what everyone seems to forget is that she finished 3rd in World Cross her senior year in HS behind 2 Kenyans. Everyone makes a big deal about Ritz finishing 3rd but it is never mentioned that Melody finished 3rd as well, beating future Oly Medalists Gete Wami, Paula Radcliffe, Gabriela Szabo, among others (Deena finished 40th).
Lukas verzbicas is the same deal. Extremely impressive Footlocker, NXN, and Footlocket wins, but failed to break Virgins Detweiler park record, and failed to come close to the course records at either national meet.
Nico Young failed to break German's Woodward Park record 6 times -- including 4 attempts when he was at least as old as German was when he set the mark, and twice during his senior season when he was a year older (lol).
But the fact that Lukas missed a (then) 38-year-old record by 3 seconds in only his 2nd attempt means he's out?
Cross country only. I think Nico over Verzbicas. Nico was so big that he kind of changed the game. It was the start of a new era and we have been seeing kids from all over the country really step up their game since Nico graduated. His senior year he was so much better than everyone else that everyone knew he would win nationals and he dominated them over a insanely stacked field at NXN in the mud and set a course record. In the mud at nationals...course record. Verzbicas was such a beast and undefeated in XC but I think that he lacked the amount of heart that Nico had. Obviously Ritz is 3rd. Then I'd say Sahlman 4th but I know there's a lot of guys deserving of that #4 ranking.
Say what you will about German, but my point still stands with LV. Mathner did what Verzbicas couldn't at Detweiler, and he got dusted by Nico. Can't help but think the same would've happened to LV
Say what you will about German, but my point still stands with LV. Mathner did what Verzbicas couldn't at Detweiler, and he got dusted by Nico. Can't help but think the same would've happened to LV
Cross country only. I think Nico over Verzbicas. Nico was so big that he kind of changed the game. It was the start of a new era and we have been seeing kids from all over the country really step up their game since Nico graduated. His senior year he was so much better than everyone else that everyone knew he would win nationals and he dominated them over a insanely stacked field at NXN in the mud and set a course record. In the mud at nationals...course record. Verzbicas was such a beast and undefeated in XC but I think that he lacked the amount of heart that Nico had. Obviously Ritz is 3rd. Then I'd say Sahlman 4th but I know there's a lot of guys deserving of that #4 ranking.
1. Nico
2. Verzbicas
3. Ritz
4. Sahlman
In about two and a half months this will no longer be a question. No one will be asking who the second greatest is either.
But for now, I think there's a pool of guys who all could have a case made for being the greatest, although it's pretty difficult to argue for one specific guy being the best. My list would be: Virgin, Ritz, Fernandez, Verzbicas, Fisher, Nico, and Sahlman. There are plenty of things you could say/argue to flip this order one way or another to make your argument for who's on top, but that seems like a bit of a fool's errend. I'm a fool though so here goes.
Sahlman was 10 seconds off Nicos woodbridge record, and was 2 second's off Fernandez' Woodward park record. He's out.
Virgin's Illinois state meet course record was bested by Methner, who was beat by over 14 seconds by Nico at NXN.
Fisher, although a back to back national champ, never really ran fast enough, or beat impressive enough competition to place him at the top.
Lukas verzbicas is the same deal. Extremely impressive Footlocker, NXN, and Footlocket wins, but failed to break Virgins Detweiler park record, and failed to come close to the course records at either national meet.
Although his solo 14:24 was pretty insane, German Fernandez didn't really have any other all-time goat status races under his belt. He got 3rd (albeit sick) at Footlocker his senior year, and didn't even go to natties as a junior. Although the stuff he did accomplish was pretty impressive considering he was a year young.
There were also those two guys who ran 14:40/39 on Balboa, but those were kind of their only important performances so I don't think there up there with the rest.
This just leaves, imho, Nico and Ritz left in the discussion. Both of their senior seasons were pretty much without blemishes. Ritz got the 5k record on a fast course, Nico got the 3 mile. Ritz set the course record at nationals in Orlando (albeit his junior year), Nico set the NXN record. Both were undefeated. Both completely dusted their competition at every race, including future sub 4 guys. (Webb and Daschbach) Both completely ran away from the field at nationals. Really the only knocks I could give these guys were that Nico failed to get German's course record, and Ritz failed to get his own Orlando record, but both stated it was not their intention to go all out at either of those races, and they were holding back. The tiebreaker for me is Ritz' bronze medal at world juniors. This puts my ranking at
Ritz 1
Nico 2
the rest 3
Kinda funny how this isn't even a debate on the girls' side because Tuohy was so good.
You’re missing Cheserek and Solinsky at a minimum. I also really don’t get the Nico argument. He was a 1-time champion and failed to break the CA state meet record. His only records were on Woodbridge (a ridiculously fast course that none of the previous greats ran on) and NXN (a course that was first introduced in 2015, and once again none of the greats ran on). He dominated NXN but almost everyone else on this list did the same at their national meet. XC times don’t matter one bit; his 14:10 was not the reason Ritz was great. Nico was a good runner but he belongs on the level of Hunter; a tier below the true all-time greats. Ritz is the clear GOAT imo, with Solinsky and Cheserek being close behind, then perhaps Virgin and Verzbicas, followed by the rest. Fernandez and Fisher are hard to measure; Fernandez has his 14:24 but no Balboa Park race, and Fisher is the opposite, 2x FL champ but not a single course record or really impressive time otherwise (42 seconds off Ritz’s record at MI state meet being his next-best).
2X winner. As a senior, won by a minute (largest margin of victory) and set the still-standing course record at Balboa. Beat some pretty good runners, including Deena Drossin, Amy Rudolph and Jenn Rhines.
You have to respect the owner of a 36 yo record on a course that almost all (but not quite all) of the top runners ran. When Tuohy ran the 16:22 at Holmdel you could argue she could have run faster than 16:35 at Balboa. But she didn't run that course, so we will never know.
Fisher beat some pretty exceptional competition. John Dressel was a stud, Maton (sub 4 guy in high school), and don't forget Drew Hunter (who some people had said was one of the best HS runners ever). And Fisher beat them all twice. Incredibly easily the 2nd time.
Fisher never lost a high school XC race his Junior and Senior years. One could reasonably discuss his Junior year still focusing on soccer vs. running being somewhat less prepared and still winning Foot Locker when Footlocker was the true national championships. His Senior year he ran to win, not set course records. That year he destroyed the field when he decided to leave the pack in the last 800 m.
Recency bias from some of the younger readers/commenters is natural. Take the time to go back and think about some of the past greats. Ritz ran to win from the gun and set course records that still stand - he also medaled at world juniors during an era when East African runners were running at world XC.
For me, and one could say it’s non recency bias and Michigan bias, Ritz was the best high school cross country runner from the US. There are many other greats but Ritz stands out in a way the others couldn’t match in high school.
He'll never be able to compete with some of these other guys when it comes to time accolades, but we shouldn't leave Jorge Torres out of a conversation of best pure cross country runners, especially with a story about him on the front page.
Lindgren was from before my time, and clearly from before the era of national-level HS competitions, but the degree to which he destroyed who he did race against was impressive. Same with Virgin.
To lend ammunition to the Ritz argument, let's look at who he beat in his two Footlocker wins. In 1999 as a junior, he beat seniors Don Sage (future NCAA 1500m champ), Ian Dobson (future 5k Olympian) and Matt Tegenkamp (future Olympian at 5k and 10k) while setting the course record in Orlando. As a senior in 2000, he absolutely stomped all over Alan Webb and Ryan Hall by 20 and 24 seconds, respectively. He missed his course record, but it was a hot day and the race was pretty pedestrian through the mile before Ritz hit the gas.
Ritz actually lost a couple of XC races his senior year, but not to US high schoolers, and they bolster his case even more given their context. He lost the US Junior XC race to Matt Tegenkamp (who was in the middle of his freshman year at Wisconsin) in a close race, then finished 3rd in the Junior race at the World XC Championships. In that race, Bekele won and finished 2nd in the Senior short course race that same weekend, and Ritz beat Teg (5th) and Nicholas Kemboi (4th). Pretty impressive stuff.
And Rich Kimball from De La Salle HS won it two years earlier. However, there were no East Africans in those races whereas Ritz and Fairchild had to face full contingents of runners from Kenya and Ethiopia when they competed.
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