Which is better for endurance - long run or tempo run

A question.

Thank you. This will keep me busy for a while. So you got your idea about long runs from looking at what guys like Salazar and Williams were doing? (That is a question.) Was there something about what they did that made more sense to you than what people like Rodgers and Shorter did, which usually seemed to include much longer runs?

HRE,

Could you, please, mention what Arthur Lydiard would say to the OP's original question? I do think that would be the definitive answer. Truth!

Arthur would say that everything is important. He kept the long run in during every training phase and in his time the tempo run was a concept for the future. His guys did runs in the base phase that essentially were tempo runs without using the term, but pretty much vanished in later phases. The OP really answers this question himself when he says "I know the answer is 'do both.'" That would be Arthur's answer as well. Because the long run remained in every phase while other types of runs came and went I suppose you could say he saw it as more important.

Interesting. I think this is the first time I have seen the benefit of the long run, and its importance/priority, being questioned in this way.

Some do advocate two back to back medium length runs rather than a "long" run.

For racing? Neither is the answer.

Accumulated skill from thousands of miles of running at every pace with lots of races is the answer to you becoming a more energy efficient racing machine.

That's why people disagree so much about 'ideal training' because they all do it in their own way.

I go a little bit against the stream here that a long run (>90min) is only something for a marathon runner. However, i agree for distances lower than 10k.

10k+ are highly aerobic events, and having a good aerobic system matters. The brain never uses all slow twitch fibers and fires alternatively or uses the same ST-fibers. If the used fibers get tired the brain fires alternative fibers. More type 2a fibers or other ST-fibers. To train the brain, to use other fibers is important. So i would say that a long run, from time to time, is a good idea based on that reasons.

It depends.

On the short term, for 800-Half, : you'll gain more from tempo runs.

Take 2 runners who aren't doing any long run or tempo run. You have only 6 weeks to train them. And you can only choose between including a weekly tempo or long run. Choose the tempo.

On the long run, I'd argue the long run is more important and more efficient. Especially if you do quality interval training, the long run will help you more.

My freshman year of high school, I was doing 30mpw and speed training a ton all summer and my pr at the end of the year was 16:55. I wouldn’t recommend training like that. My long run was 7 miles

I was before Salazar and Williams so neither of them influenced me, and I dont give a flying fck was Lydiard has to say. Lydiards training is for serious runners who have the other six days of the week sorted out anyway.

I thought you were before Salazar and Williams. I totally agree with your last sentence.

Thanks. Hope you keep that step ahead for a good while.

I think that total number of runs and total overall mileage, however you get them, are the two most important things. I actually read a very obscure study from very long ago that suggested this and it aligns with what I've seen over the decades. Of course one benefit of a long run is that it raises your mileage. There are too many successful coaches and runners who believe it's very important to do long runs for me to go all the way to agreeing completely with malmo and call it unimportant but I am totally with him in saying that what you do with the other six days matter a lot more.

East Africans combine both. They do what we would call a steady state long run every week. They run 80+ minutes at about 80% of max heart rate. Since a tempo is anywhere between 80-88% they’re technically doing both.

Many runners are doing tempos at the lower end nearly every run. It’s a reason why they fail to improve. For most one minute per mile slower than your 5k pace is a “tempo.”

Oh and they have an easy day before and after. Their versions of long runs are considered workouts and treated accordingly.

You do realize I was being flippant about "flying fck"? The thing is Lydiard cultists have made the long run sacrosanct when in most cases they shouldn't be done at all. I've done the full Lydiard including the hill bounding, which I found to be utterly destructive. Lydiards training should be a general guide for competitive runners, not a blueprint.

I remember some comments you made when Lydiard died and was not bothered by the "flying" you know what. I also have seen several of the training samples you've put here at times and seen more than a few long runs there. In the old days here when we had the Lydiard Wars with Antonio, I ALWAYS argued that you needed to understand Lydiard's ideas and adapt them to your needs and circumstances rather than just follow a schedule. I too had trouble with both hill bounding and hill springing so I ditched it but seemed to do fine just running up and down "de heels." And I once almost drove my college roommate out of the sport by talking him into doing a long run, just 15 miles, because it was such an awful experience for him. I'd never do that again.

This.

You said OP that your endurance was crappy with positive splits, and maybe it was. But maybe your pacing strategy just needs an adjustment based on your fitness. Good workouts + mileage is gonna give you the best sense of your fitness.

Also 20:00 tempos might not have done anything for your endurance because 20:00 isn't that much time spent in that zone. Do broken tempos like 12:00-10:00-8:00 @ T / 3-4 x 10:00 @ T / 2 x 15:00-20:00 @ T, to spend 30:00-40:00 in that zone instead of 20. Do threshold intervals. 12-15 x 1k on short rest. Do long tempos 6-12 @ M in a long run. Mix in that stuff & you'll get stronger.

long tempos, I'm serious, especially progression long runs, starting at easy pace and finishing at HM pace and faster.