Funny how runners only started caring about running fast after cheat shoes were introduced. Try telling Lagat, Rupp, Kennedy, Goucher, Williams, etc. that they didn’t run 12:53 indoors because, get this, they didn’t care about running fast. Lol!
It is a fact that many top guys didn't prioritize indoor Time Trials in the past as much as they do now. The shoes help (I believe around 1 second per kilometer ~ and maybe slightly more the longer the race), but having 30 high-quality indoor tracks in the US alone and the new culture of chasing indoor records/qualifying marks on them has spread to most of the top US athletes.
Why would you think that past top athletes wouldn’t be interested in running fast times?
Based off average times over the past 10 years and what we’re seeing now here is what I think the shoes are worth depending on race distance and running form.
Mile: 1-2 seconds
3,000: 5-8 seconds
5,000: 10-25 seconds give or take a couple seconds (average time for top 30 US male runners this year is 13:19. Average for same top 30 the past 10 years prior to cheat shoes is 13:54).
The fastest average prior to this and last year was in 18/19 at 13:39.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to think Fisher is a 13:05-13:08 runner without the shoes. 13:05 flat would still make him the second fastest US indoor 5,000 runner of all-time..ahem…if we throw out the last 2 years. Bekele is a sub 12:30 runner with the shoes.
It is a fact that many top guys didn't prioritize indoor Time Trials in the past as much as they do now. The shoes help (I believe around 1 second per kilometer ~ and maybe slightly more the longer the race), but having 30 high-quality indoor tracks in the US alone and the new culture of chasing indoor records/qualifying marks on them has spread to most of the top US athletes.
Why would you think that past top athletes wouldn’t be interested in running fast times?
Based off average times over the past 10 years and what we’re seeing now here is what I think the shoes are worth depending on race distance and running form.
Mile: 1-2 seconds
3,000: 5-8 seconds
5,000: 10-25 seconds give or take a couple seconds (average time for top 30 US male runners this year is 13:19. Average for same top 30 the past 10 years prior to cheat shoes is 13:54).
The fastest average prior to this and last year was in 18/19 at 13:39.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to think Fisher is a 13:05-13:08 runner without the shoes. 13:05 flat would still make him the second fastest US indoor 5,000 runner of all-time..ahem…if we throw out the last 2 years. Bekele is a sub 12:30 runner with the shoes.
Because indoors wasn't a big deal for those guys. Indoors is as fast as outdoors. 12:53 is a great mark outdoors or indoors. It should not be compared to only indoor times. If the shoes were worth 10-25 seconds, that means Barega/Gebrhiwet/Kejelcha were all in 12:18-12:36 shape at the 2018 Brussels 5K and are have regressed to being 13 flat type guys the last couple years with the shoes. Sorry, not buying it.
It's crazy to think that Adam Goucher prevailed by a whisker over Bernard Lagat at NCAA indoors in 1998-ish with an NCAA indoor record of 7:46 low. Now that doesn't get you to nattys.
It's crazy to think that Adam Goucher prevailed by a whisker over Bernard Lagat at NCAA indoors in 1998-ish with an NCAA indoor record of 7:46 low. Now that doesn't get you to nattys.
Come on. Its over 20 years ago FFS
Ok, take Rupp. His best college time indoor is 13:18.
4s slower than Jacobs and 8s slower than Wildshutt.
I would like to see for at least one track meet make everyone where track spikes that are at least 5 years old. Run a Diamond league style face with rabbits and see how fast they can go
It is a fact that many top guys didn't prioritize indoor Time Trials in the past as much as they do now. The shoes help (I believe around 1 second per kilometer ~ and maybe slightly more the longer the race), but having 30 high-quality indoor tracks in the US alone and the new culture of chasing indoor records/qualifying marks on them has spread to most of the top US athletes.
Why would you think that past top athletes wouldn’t be interested in running fast times?
Based off average times over the past 10 years and what we’re seeing now here is what I think the shoes are worth depending on race distance and running form.
Mile: 1-2 seconds
3,000: 5-8 seconds
5,000: 10-25 seconds give or take a couple seconds (average time for top 30 US male runners this year is 13:19. Average for same top 30 the past 10 years prior to cheat shoes is 13:54).
The fastest average prior to this and last year was in 18/19 at 13:39.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to think Fisher is a 13:05-13:08 runner without the shoes. 13:05 flat would still make him the second fastest US indoor 5,000 runner of all-time..ahem…if we throw out the last 2 years. Bekele is a sub 12:30 runner with the shoes.
It’s very obvious that you just typed whatever numbers popped into you’re head when making this post. None of them are true and none of them are real statistics.
Why would you think that past top athletes wouldn’t be interested in running fast times?
Based off average times over the past 10 years and what we’re seeing now here is what I think the shoes are worth depending on race distance and running form.
Mile: 1-2 seconds
3,000: 5-8 seconds
5,000: 10-25 seconds give or take a couple seconds (average time for top 30 US male runners this year is 13:19. Average for same top 30 the past 10 years prior to cheat shoes is 13:54).
The fastest average prior to this and last year was in 18/19 at 13:39.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to think Fisher is a 13:05-13:08 runner without the shoes. 13:05 flat would still make him the second fastest US indoor 5,000 runner of all-time..ahem…if we throw out the last 2 years. Bekele is a sub 12:30 runner with the shoes.
It’s very obvious that you just typed whatever numbers popped into you’re head when making this post. None of them are true and none of them are real statistics.
What numbers are you talking about? The amount of time improvement? Kind of, but they are based off the amount of improvement US athletes are seeing this year as compared with an average of the last 10 years prior to the cheat shoes. Until an actual scientific study is done on the shoes (not all shoes are the same) this is all we have. The numbers showing the improvement in times is correct. Go look it up. The average time for a top 30 US indoor runner this year in the 5,000 is 13:19. 3 years ago it was 20 seconds slower and if you go back and take a 10-year average it’s over 30 seconds. These are the numbers and if you think cheat shoes aren’t, well, allowing athletes to cheat you’re living in a dream world. I would bet my next paycheck that if you had a race and made everyone wear regular spikes we’d see times similar to what they were pre-cheat shoes. You really think Fisher is faster than Lagat, Rupp, Kennedy and a whole list of world legends? Funny how he got fast right at the same time the shoes came out. Fisher had a 3-year period (prior to Covid) where he didn’t improve at all. Then bam! Fastest American ever and running 30 seconds faster than pre-Covid.
Ummm. You act as though coaching philosophies have changed much in 3 years.
Ah, the ol’ “philosophies have changed” excuse. Funny how the “philosophies” coincide exactly with the release of cheat shoes. Please explain what “philosophies” have changed over the last 3 years. Does one of them include “and by all means, make sure to wear dragonfly’s as they are sure to get you 30 seconds in a 10k”? Must at least have this one because everyone is wearing them.
Funny how your comment gets so many dislikes from all the college kids in their super spikes, and yet not a single one of them can answer the question you posed. What new coaching philosophy could be responsible for the dramatic improvement in times across the sport?
This board is filled with collegiate athletes benefiting from new tech who refuse to admit that the technology is playing a significant role in their improvement. It probably accounts for a solid 3-5 seconds for the 3k distance, depending on the athlete.
Ah, the ol’ “philosophies have changed” excuse. Funny how the “philosophies” coincide exactly with the release of cheat shoes. Please explain what “philosophies” have changed over the last 3 years. Does one of them include “and by all means, make sure to wear dragonfly’s as they are sure to get you 30 seconds in a 10k”? Must at least have this one because everyone is wearing them.
Funny how your comment gets so many dislikes from all the college kids in their super spikes, and yet not a single one of them can answer the question you posed. What new coaching philosophy could be responsible for the dramatic improvement in times across the sport?
This board is filled with collegiate athletes benefiting from new tech who refuse to admit that the technology is playing a significant role in their improvement. It probably accounts for a solid 3-5 seconds for the 3k distance, depending on the athlete.
*quick note: the original post I was commenting on was actually agreeing and I misread their post.
I agree. I think a lot of those commenting have something to lose if the shoes go away. I competed 20+ years ago and it’s hard to say what my feelings about the shoes would be if the had been developed in the late 90s instead of today. I just think there needs to be more scrutiny around the shoes by US and world T&F.
Funny how your comment gets so many dislikes from all the college kids in their super spikes, and yet not a single one of them can answer the question you posed. What new coaching philosophy could be responsible for the dramatic improvement in times across the sport?
This board is filled with collegiate athletes benefiting from new tech who refuse to admit that the technology is playing a significant role in their improvement. It probably accounts for a solid 3-5 seconds for the 3k distance, depending on the athlete.
*quick note: the original post I was commenting on was actually agreeing and I misread their post.
I agree. I think a lot of those commenting have something to lose if the shoes go away. I competed 20+ years ago and it’s hard to say what my feelings about the shoes would be if the had been developed in the late 90s instead of today. I just think there needs to be more scrutiny around the shoes by US and world T&F.
The root of the comments in this mini discussion was my comparing the advancement of "cheat shoes" to the advancement of coaching philosophies. I was intending to convey that we shouldn't get upset about the "cheat shoes." They're just better spikes. Likewise, it would be nonsense to get upset about modern coaching philosophies.
Technology and knowledge evolves over time, whether we like it or not. If you want to draw the line with these particular spikes, that is an arbitrary line you are drawing, and decades from now there will be some other new issue for people to gripe about.
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