I also graduated college a few years ago and dont run track races anymore, so if anything I should be arguing that the shoes make a 4 second difference to make my own times look better. But Im clearly not doing that.
I also graduated college a few years ago and dont run track races anymore, so if anything I should be arguing that the shoes make a 4 second difference to make my own times look better. But Im clearly not doing that.
You keep harping on "world records" to illustrate why super shoes aren't as super - they obviously are.
Just looking at the men here, world records are, historically, complete outliers in athletics. It takes FREAK athletes. The El Gs, the Daniel Komens, the Bekeles etc. Even with super shoes, world records will be incredibly difficult to come close to outside of the Jakobs, Braizers, Cheptegeis.
Instead, look at the slew of long-standing national, collegiate, school etc. records being routinely smashed every weekend since 2021. Look at the the title of the thread. If you're only argument is along the lines of "why aren't pros running world records then?" you have blinders on and refuse to accept what is in front of you.
Ed Ches ran 3:52 at BU. I'm sure you're aware of his accomplishments. He wore Victory spikes. This weekend, random freshmen and sophomores are popping 3:55s-3:56s. A guy who has never won an NCAA title just matched his time to the tenth of a second. Do you really think peak King Ches was only 2-4 seconds faster than these guys over the mile? Maybe Ches just didn't try hard enough, who knows but surely it's not the shoes right?
Was everybody in the NCAA before 2020/2021 simply not trying hard enough?
Super spikes are bringing the aggregate performance of well trained athletes higher in a way never seen. World records will always be illusive as they're world records. But NCAA top 10 lists have basically covered in "2020, 2021, 2022" performances.
Human physiology hasn't changed. The coaches haven't changed. The tracks haven't changed. The meets haven't changed. The training hasn't changed. The competitiveness and mentality of NCAA athletes hasn't changed. The shoes, however, have changed. It started on the roads, see Kipchoge's 1:59, and now it's happening on the track.
It's not to discredit accomplishments made today or to boost the accomplishments of yesterday. It's just facing reality.
I use German Fernandez as an example for comparison. High school phenom. Freshman year goes onto run 3:55/7:47/13:25. Times that many great NCAA runners, that went into being Olympians, some who medaled, never got close to. Ok State has two guys that have run faster this year. Dave Smith hasn’t changed his training much since German was in school. At least one of those two guys is a sophomore, not a sixth year. Neither of those two guys were better than German was in high school.
So the shoes only work for collegians but not the best runners gotcha... Its quite simple, if the shoes are 4 seconds faster, 3:30 guys would now be 3:26 guys. I cant put it any simpler than that. Your argument that world records are outliers is completely irrelevant and contradicts everything you are saying.
If they make a 4 second improvement, why are you arguing world records cant be broken except for Jakob/Chep etc.. ? Its basic math that guys who would be world class (3:30 etc) would now be WR threats. The more I read your post the less sense it makes.
Not a bad idea there, here is the reality. The Landscape has changed after tonite folks should realize, run at BU. If you cannot PR , get a full time job. Grant Fisher God bless him, goes 12:53.x come on now.
So the shoes only work for collegians but not the best runners gotcha... Its quite simple, if the shoes are 4 seconds faster, 3:30 guys would now be 3:26 guys. I cant put it any simpler than that. Your argument that world records are outliers is completely irrelevant and contradicts everything you are saying.
If they make a 4 second improvement, why are you arguing world records cant be broken except for Jakob/Chep etc.. ? Its basic math that guys who would be world class (3:30 etc) would now be WR threats. The more I read your post the less sense it makes.
I sort of think the shoes are more like .5-.75s/lap. So we have all those 3:32 guys laying down 329s now. But you still need a legit 329 guy in old shoes to run a 326. It is a pretty short list of guys who ran a 329 low before 2019.
You're probably just salty like me that your 4:02 mile from a decade + ago doesn't look nearly as good anymore.
Forget a decade ago. Let’s look at 2021.
Top 5000m seed was 13:28.00 in 2021 (Mantz). This year, 13:28.10 is the 16th!!! seed time (the season is not over)
In the 3000m, the top returner is Garcia Romo. He won the bronze. Yesterday, he ran a PR of 7:47.56. That’s good. The problem is that this only ranks him 21st, so we may not see him at NCAA at 3000m.
In the mile, the top returner is Fogg (4th last year). He also ran a mile PR this season (3:56.60). That’s good. The problem is that this also ranks him 21st, so we may not see him at NCAA.
You're probably just salty like me that your 4:02 mile from a decade + ago doesn't look nearly as good anymore.
Forget a decade ago. Let’s look at 2021.
Top 5000m seed was 13:28.00 in 2021 (Mantz). This year, 13:28.10 is the 16th!!! seed time (the season is not over)
In the 3000m, the top returner is Garcia Romo. He won the bronze. Yesterday, he ran a PR of 7:47.56. That’s good. The problem is that this only ranks him 21st, so we may not see him at NCAA at 3000m.
In the mile, the top returner is Fogg (4th last year). He also ran a mile PR this season (3:56.60). That’s good. The problem is that this also ranks him 21st, so we may not see him at NCAA.
Did the BU track exist last year?
Were super shoes around 12 months ago?
Last indoors was very different because people were also focusing on XC. Some did both. Tough to compare the two.
Top 5000m seed was 13:28.00 in 2021 (Mantz). This year, 13:28.10 is the 16th!!! seed time (the season is not over)
In the 3000m, the top returner is Garcia Romo. He won the bronze. Yesterday, he ran a PR of 7:47.56. That’s good. The problem is that this only ranks him 21st, so we may not see him at NCAA at 3000m.
In the mile, the top returner is Fogg (4th last year). He also ran a mile PR this season (3:56.60). That’s good. The problem is that this also ranks him 21st, so we may not see him at NCAA.
Did the BU track exist last year?
Were super shoes around 12 months ago?
Last indoors was very different because people were also focusing on XC. Some did both. Tough to compare the two.
Ok, but in 2020, only 2 guys went faster than 13:28 and in 2019 zero went faster than 13:31 so 2021 was not particularly weak.
BU track was around in 2020, 2019…
what percentage of NCAA runners had super spikes in 2020?
im not sure the spikes even help that much besides being way easier on your lower legs/feet. it allows you to train more in spikes and recover better so there are certainly benefits, but some durable runners probably dont even notice the difference. i think the road shoes are more of an advantage in terms of times imo.
I also graduated college a few years ago and dont run track races anymore, so if anything I should be arguing that the shoes make a 4 second difference to make my own times look better. But Im clearly not doing that.
You keep harping on "world records" to illustrate why super shoes aren't as super - they obviously are.
Just looking at the men here, world records are, historically, complete outliers in athletics. It takes FREAK athletes. The El Gs, the Daniel Komens, the Bekeles etc. Even with super shoes, world records will be incredibly difficult to come close to outside of the Jakobs, Braizers, Cheptegeis.
Instead, look at the slew of long-standing national, collegiate, school etc. records being routinely smashed every weekend since 2021. Look at the the title of the thread. If you're only argument is along the lines of "why aren't pros running world records then?" you have blinders on and refuse to accept what is in front of you.
Ed Ches ran 3:52 at BU. I'm sure you're aware of his accomplishments. He wore Victory spikes. This weekend, random freshmen and sophomores are popping 3:55s-3:56s. A guy who has never won an NCAA title just matched his time to the tenth of a second. Do you really think peak King Ches was only 2-4 seconds faster than these guys over the mile? Maybe Ches just didn't try hard enough, who knows but surely it's not the shoes right?
Was everybody in the NCAA before 2020/2021 simply not trying hard enough?
Super spikes are bringing the aggregate performance of well trained athletes higher in a way never seen. World records will always be illusive as they're world records. But NCAA top 10 lists have basically covered in "2020, 2021, 2022" performances.
Human physiology hasn't changed. The coaches haven't changed. The tracks haven't changed. The meets haven't changed. The training hasn't changed. The competitiveness and mentality of NCAA athletes hasn't changed. The shoes, however, have changed. It started on the roads, see Kipchoge's 1:59, and now it's happening on the track.
It's not to discredit accomplishments made today or to boost the accomplishments of yesterday. It's just facing reality.
The issue is if it’s around 2 seconds per mile that IS a huge deal. You don’t need to exaggerate it to 4 which just makes a bunch of crazy things pop up like Gregorek as a 3:45.9 guy etc. The NCAA has always had a bunch of guys who run 3:36-3:39 outdoors. Now everyone is taking advantage of tons of fast indoor opportunities, getting 2 seconds from the spikes and a bunch of 3:54-3:56 times happen.
You keep harping on "world records" to illustrate why super shoes aren't as super - they obviously are.
Just looking at the men here, world records are, historically, complete outliers in athletics. It takes FREAK athletes. The El Gs, the Daniel Komens, the Bekeles etc. Even with super shoes, world records will be incredibly difficult to come close to outside of the Jakobs, Braizers, Cheptegeis.
The outlier thing is a myth. The world record holders are only marginally faster than the next 20 best men/women. You're forgetting about the advantage conferred having run during the EPO era. That's why El G's record still stands--he was a phenomenal responder.