SHOCKING. Lia Thomas appears to be done. NCAA IMMEDIATELY changing transgender regulations

We need to take gender out of sports completely. Define the elite competition categories based on whatever biological parameters make the most sense (high T v low T or whatever is the easiest to apply and scientifically valid metric). All competition is gender/sex neutral as those terms are not specific enough to ensure fairness. It doesn’t matter how you identify or if you were born DSD, you compete in your biologically appropriate category for the sport. I know, holding the “low T” world record doesn’t sound as good as the women’s wr, but that’s ok. BTW, I realize that T may not be the best metric since T exposure during puberty still confers and advantage even if in competition T is low. Let science tell us which metric(s) are best. Lia is a woman. Niyonsaba is a woman. What competition category is appropriate for them is a different matter. A couple of caveats: 1) changing rules mid season is lame; 2) non elite sports, like HS and youth sports can be gender based. Inclusivity matters more at this level and defining the categories and enforcing them too invasive. I think at the college level and beyond the biological rules should apply.

The Narwhal wrote:

I don't understand how the NCAA didn't have the foresight to predict that its existing transgender policies have significant flaws.

Cece Telfer exposed the flaw of the policy almost three years ago. They could have changed the policy back then. But they didn't take it seriously, because "it's just D2." And now, they are in this mess.

While I think this is a step in the right direction, I wonder if this can withstand legal challenge.

OozmaKappa wrote:

So men are still allowed to compete in the womens division?

This is a gross violation of womens rights.

Why do we divide youth sport into age categories?

Why do we divide sport into Men's and Women's category?

There must have been some reason... whatever it was, it's so last-century.

Women with Adam's Apples and who shave chest hair must surely have no unfair advantage over their dainty testosterone-challenged peers.

NCAA is just trying to save their own skins (and sponsorship monies too I bet) by transferring the "policy" to higher up sporting federations. "Don't be mad at us, we're just following what the sporting federation guidelines are now, so take it up with them."

Don't want to lose any more money or have more bad press before March Madness begins...

Ernest wrote:

OozmaKappa wrote:

So men are still allowed to compete in the womens division?

This is a gross violation of womens rights.

Why do we divide youth sport into age categories?

Why do we divide sport into Men's and Women's category?

There must have been some reason... whatever it was, it's so last-century.

Women with Adam's Apples and who shave chest hair must surely have no unfair advantage over their dainty testosterone-challenged peers.

Exactly. Let's be more inclusive of transage individuals who identify as 12 year olds and want to compete in the youth division. Or just do away with all age divisions so no one feels excluded.

I am as socially liberal as a sane person gets, but even I do not believe a person who was born male should be allowed to participate EVER in a sport for girls or women.

Just as an extreme example, what if a basketball player guy who grows to be 7'5" is now transgender and identifies as a woman. I don't care if he chops off his bits and pieces and takes hormone therapy...he's still 7'5". Unfair advantage.

Now, I don't participate in any of the nastiness and phobia that surrounds transgender people. I will gladly call anyone anything they want to be called...and I do mean anything, except for the N word. If they want me to call them that, I will just avoid referring to their name.

I'm for freedom. I support a person's right to own a gun, to have an abortion or not, to say publicly vile (non-violent) things, to wear flat-brimmed hats, to chop off their bits and pieces and change their name and lead their life as a different gender than they were previously, to do anything that is legal where you do it. How someone dresses, what they want to be called, or how they outwardly express themselves, has no effect on me whatsoever as long as it is legal.

rojo wrote:

CarolinaRunner wrote:

"A spokesperson from the NCAA has clarified that the “previously established IOC policy criteria” refers to the November 2021 framework, which doesn’t have specific rules about testosterone impression but provides guidance to sport governing bodies as they establish their own rules. In other words, at present, for swimming, this means that there is now no testosterone suppression requirement, as neither FINA nor USA Swimming have published one."

https://swimswam.com/ncaa-board-of-governors-updates-transgender-policy/

Wow. So I guess she's not done. She can continue to dominate.

The rules should be simple - no level is acceptable.

I'm hoping you just worded this badly? You know that women naturally produce testosterone too, right? How much testosterone XX women produce, and how their bodies use it, is different than XY men, but... you know that... right?

Whether you are XX or XY or some other variation, every human needs testosterone.

If you want to argue that people born as XY men should never be allowed to compete in the women's category, that's fine, but there is never a scenario where the rule for anyone should be zero testosterone.

I am a woman, and while I sympathize with the transgender community and want them to have recognition and be treated fairly, why do they have to invade women's space? It's not just sports. I don't want to see anyone who was born male be recognized as "the first female" in anything. It's demoralizing. Like, " hey ladies, I busted through that glass ceiling for you." It's only a matter of time until all of the women's records in sports are out of reach for any natural born woman to ever have a shot at. How can we still call that women's sports? Who in their right mind is cheering for this?

The message is that men really are better than women at everything, including being women. I don't know what the fair solution to this is, but expecting biological women athletes to not want any chance of winning is ridiculous.

It's ironic that the message being sent from the radical left to little girls via their radical gender ideology is that men are better than women at being women, as evidenced by a man being crowned woman of the year and other such nonsense

polevaultpower wrote:

rojo wrote:

Wow. So I guess she's not done. She can continue to dominate.

The rules should be simple - no level is acceptable.

I'm hoping you just worded this badly? You know that women naturally produce testosterone too, right? How much testosterone XX women produce, and how their bodies use it, is different than XY men, but... you know that... right?

Whether you are XX or XY or some other variation, every human needs testosterone.

If you want to argue that people born as XY men should never be allowed to compete in the women's category, that's fine, but there is never a scenario where the rule for anyone should be zero testosterone.

The testosterone rules are like mask mandates and lockdowns. They do not accomplish what they claim to, they just provide the illusion that something is being done about a perceived problem.

No matter what you do to a mans testosterone levels, he is still and always will be a man.

maybe when you were told your characterization of what happened was wrong and edited your original post, you should've edited the clickbait thread title too?

So are these transgenders in or out of NCAA women's sports?

The question of trans people in sports has been something I've thought about for a long time, but I can never come up with a good argument as to why they should be allowed to compete with the gender they identify with post-transition. I have issues with both sides of the argument though, so if anyone can give a good argument to me, I'd love to hear it.

On one hand, I realize that for MtF people, having years to train as a male with all of the physiological benefits that provides will carry over at least somewhat even after transitioning. I think it's similar to how being able to train while on PEDs will offer benefits even after you've stopped using them, though not exactly the same. Trans people (I believe) still retain things like a higher lung capacity and a higher bone density even post-transition. These differences make me think they should not be allowed to compete against the sex they transitioned to because someone born as a woman would never have the chance to train with those advantages.

On the other hand, FtM people often take testosterone in order to transition, and if any other athlete was doing that, I think everyone would consider it doping. They would (and often do) crush the competition when competing against women, and I don't think that's fair to any biological female athlete. That said, I don't think any FtM person has ever competed on the global level post-transition, so they have to choose between never being competitive against their gender, or absolutely crushing the competition against the gender they no longer identify with.

I've heard that MtF transgenders may not gain any biological advantage if they take puberty blockers and transition once they're older, and if that's true, then I'd be fine with them competing against biological women.

In general though, it seems like there can't be a good blanket rule about who should be able to compete against who that everyone agrees with. MtF people probably have too many biological differences to fairly compete against men or women, and the same goes with FtM people. That means that we either have to 1) ban transgender people from competing in sports, 2) Allow them to compete against the gender they'd like to, or 3) create a new division for trans people specifically.

Personally, I think that 1 is probably the worst option. I'd hate to see a whole group of people not allowed to compete at all, and I'd hate for an athlete to want to transition, but hold off on it because they would be banned from the sport. 2 is the second-worst option for me, just because it seems really unfair to let people compete when they are taking drugs that heavily change the body. 3 seems like the best option out of the ones I listed, but I feel like it could lead to a stigmatization of trans people as being 'others', and it would probably be really hard to regulate any kind of drug usage.

[quote]Slo-Jo wrote:

It's only a matter of time until all of the women's records in sports are out of reach for any natural born woman to ever have a shot at. /quote]

While I agree with you that people born in male bodies shouldn't be in women's sports, I think this is hyperbolic. It could happen, but what major world records, if any, right now belong to trans women? I can't think of any in T & F (maybe I'm wrong).

We absolutely need regulation and the protected women's class of sports needs to remain protected for it to mean anything. And while concern for the future informs the need to act now, I also think it's wise to not claim the sky is falling just yet.

Many people do not want to admit that a form of exclusion is part of life for everybody. We are not able or allowed to do everything that our heart desires. Many factors impact our careers, relationships, hobbies, opportunities, etc.

Those categorized as leaders are responsible for structuring things so that the greatest good can be achieved. Not that atrocities can be committed against the minority, but when difficult decisions have to be made, options have to be meticulously weighed.

"Forcing" trangender athletes to compete in their category assigned at birth serves to protect women's athletics. The population of M to F athletes PALES in comparison to the population of biologically born women. It is not a decision to exclude anyone.

Someone above stated that transgender athletes would stand out if the competed against their birth sex post transition. That is false as people are encouraged to present however they please. Noah Lyles could run in a pink Adidas onesie with leopard hair and that is okay. Inika McPherson does not present in a classically feminine way, but is still celebrated and included. If someone is juicing or taking hormone therapy as a means of advantage, they should not be allowed to compete.

Although intersex athletes can be identified and targeted by sporting federations dishonestly, I believe that to be a completely different discussion.

OozmaKappa wrote:

Ernest wrote:

Why do we divide youth sport into age categories?

Why do we divide sport into Men's and Women's category?

There must have been some reason... whatever it was, it's so last-century.

Women with Adam's Apples and who shave chest hair must surely have no unfair advantage over their dainty testosterone-challenged peers.

Exactly. Let's be more inclusive of transage individuals who identify as 12 year olds and want to compete in the youth division. Or just do away with all age divisions so no one feels excluded.

Within Men's Sports we divide boxing and wrestling into weight divisions. It's not a vast conspiracy against smaller athletes, it's to bring about a somewhat fair and competitive sport.

Yes...Very well summed up.

Do you think Paralympics are stigmatizing disabled people as "others"?

OozmaKappa wrote:

polevaultpower wrote:

I'm hoping you just worded this badly? You know that women naturally produce testosterone too, right? How much testosterone XX women produce, and how their bodies use it, is different than XY men, but... you know that... right?

Whether you are XX or XY or some other variation, every human needs testosterone.

If you want to argue that people born as XY men should never be allowed to compete in the women's category, that's fine, but there is never a scenario where the rule for anyone should be zero testosterone.

The testosterone rules are like mask mandates and lockdowns. They do not accomplish what they claim to, they just provide the illusion that something is being done about a perceived problem.

No matter what you do to a mans testosterone levels, he is still and always will be a man.

There is a big difference for Testosterone limits for DSD women vs for transgender women.