Should USATF just scrap future XC national champs?

runn wrote:

Zam Boanga wrote:

It also doesn't help that there isn't a world championship team to make. Bathurst, Australia was supposed to host the meet this year, but it's postponed for another year.

Maybe USATF shouldn't have this meet in non-world championship years, or maybe consolidate the meet with the club xc meet? If anyone has a better answer, I'd like to see it.

Going way way way back- this race was held just to be a trials race for worlds.

There was no Club Nats, only the AAU/TAC etc Nationals held in November.

I can see only having it WC years and finding money to get the best runners there.

As to the Indoor Track suggestion in another post- I like Indoors but we don't events over 1 mile/1500.

Let the distance guys do road and cross races.

This captures it more or less.

Nationals (which was the bigger race that got the press) was held the Saturday after Thanksgiving. Then they usually had the WC tryouts in Feb. with the WCs in March. The tryouts had smaller fields, but more elite. Not even sure if there was prize money but making the WC team was a big deal. About 20 years ago they shifted and started up Club XC to get more citizen participation. They have succeeded in that, some years 2000 or so competitors, and two "Open" races (A and B) for men, each with up to 400 or 500 runners. But the top level (say top 10 or 20) competition is thinner.

The USATF XC Nationals has half or less of the participation as Club XC, but it's still open to citizen runners and masters. It usually has a deeper elite field because there are international team teams to make. Without a WC this year, the meet had less depth but that was a stellar women's field and men's was pretty good. Leonard Korir is no slouch.

As far as being so close to Club XC, as has been pointed out that's because the WCs in Australia were to be held in February (earlier than normal--which considering that's mid-summer there, not sure why they would do that. Why not late March, per usual (and getting to be autumn), and then you could have US Nationals in February, so the normal two-month gap following Club XC.

USATF could do a better job of matching the WC course with the US Nationals. e.g., 2019 Nationals were in Tallahassee (relatively easy course) while the WCs were on a very hilly course (1160 feet elevation gain and loss, with zero flat). There should be enough time to plan ahead and pick a site that site would have similar conditions as the WCs.

I didn't pay much attention to this event, but there definitely seems like there was lack of marketing at the local level. I am surprised they had a "community 4k" with only 8 finishers. It seems like any random 5k has at least a couple hundred people.

comment from Canada here,

I gotta think we have a decent system up here.

First weekend of Nov are provincial (state) high school champs

Second weekend are the national university champs

Third weekend is NCAA

Fourth weekend is Canadian Nationals.

it sounds like the USA has a lot more races to fit in, but i don't get why it is so complicated.

the focus seems to be on confusion rather than competition.

2 cents from a Canuck.

I wish they would bring back the yearly World Meet. I used to love it- it had more of an international flavor in the 70's and 80's because, I think, more top runners from around the world ran.

There was one in Morocco (I think?) about 1975- check that out.

Then the late 70's early 80's when Rose and Virgin were winning. The team race was more wide open.

I don't expect the top runners to compete for free. There has to be significant and deep prize money.

I remember Pekka Paivarinta, Erick DeBeck, Mariano Haro- guys who excelled in cross.

coahc wrote:

If and I mean if it comes to be an Olympic sport again it will raise in profile

Don't see either happening, the Olympics can't save international xc. The best we could hope for is a more streamlined, sensible calendar for Worlds and US nationals. XC would be a broadcasting dog, deep pocket sponsors smartly run away from it. I love xc and wish it were more popular but I'm not going to be in denial.

not my registered name wrote:

USATF could do a better job of matching the WC course with the US Nationals. e.g., 2019 Nationals were in Tallahassee (relatively easy course) while the WCs were on a very hilly course (1160 feet elevation gain and loss, with zero flat). There should be enough time to plan ahead and pick a site that site would have similar conditions as the WCs.

This is not a professional sport, I repeat it's NOT a professional sport. There aren't multiple entities knocking each other over to be at the front of the line to bid on hosting this event. In fact, USATF had to resort to requiring multi-year bids to get anyone to host in a non-WXC year because of the obvious result we witnessed this past weekend. There's typically three, two, or one viable bids submitted anymore and the course profiles aren't typically among the top differentiating criteria.

Hell no! I was there as a spectator. It was a great event with great competition. With a little promotion and national TV coverage it could be a major event.

morebeerslessfears wrote:

comment from Canada here,

I gotta think we have a decent system up here.

First weekend of Nov are provincial (state) high school champs

Second weekend are the national university champs

Third weekend is NCAA

Fourth weekend is Canadian Nationals.

it sounds like the USA has a lot more races to fit in, but i don't get why it is so complicated.

the focus seems to be on confusion rather than competition.

2 cents from a Canuck.

You're not wrong at all.

USATF requires $30K up front just to submit a bid and the local organizer is responsible for nearly all associated costs if they are awarded the event and USATF sanction. Why? Lord only knows! It's no wonder why people are not crawling over each other for the prestige of hosting nationals and why it nearly always gets held in some out of the way place.

You're right..."USATF could do a better job of matching the WC course with the US Nationals. e.g., 2019 Nationals were in Tallahassee (relatively easy course) while the WCs were on a very hilly course (1160 feet elevation gain and loss, with zero flat). There should be enough time to plan ahead and pick a site that site would have similar conditions as the WCs."

The only problem is that USATF has already given the national championships for the next two years to Richmond, Virginia, with next year's race scheduled for February 4th, two weeks before the world championships in Bathurst...that in itself will be interesting, considering that's not enough time for certain athletes to even come up with a passport (U20 athletes), and who knows what the restrictions Australia will have next year.

Is the $30K fee to submit a bid to host nationals refunded if your bid is not selected?

Did USATF require those in the citizen race to become USATF members for the day to race?

Assuming everyone else who wanted to race had to be a USATF member also.

And don't forget the streaming coverage of the event is behind a paywall on an obscure site.

Does the USATF national championship sanction limit who can sponsor it?

Its much easier to participate in or watch cornhole.

People like to run out in nature (look at the popularity of trail running and trail races).

People will pay hundreds and even thousands of dollars to run in nature ( trail races).

And if you like cross country running, there are very few races open to the general public.

But all the little USATF hoops you need to jump through are a barrier to participation.

The elites have other options, bigger prizes to aim for.

The masses do not want to have any part of highly competitive events like track or cross country.

I think folks have already summed up my thoughts. This event definitely doesn't need to go. They had enough runners in other categories to likely break even, with very little prize money on the table. I think combining the event with club nationals would be good. I feel like people don't know or don't care that anybody can register for the open races. A fall date makes more sense because most athletes are base building by now & won't want to race.

There also needs to be a reward like World XC or XC at the winter Olympics.

There are tons of stand alone XC races in Europe that attract big/quality fields. We don't have that in the US but do have an extensive college circuit that has runners racing every weekend.

not the all knowing expert wrote:

USATF is a joke. Only $2000 for first place and all athletes had to pay their own way and hotels.

This 100%

And we are still in a pandemic.

USATF… makes consistently poor decisions. Leadership should be fired. Their wages are astronomical. The services they provide are subpar.

morebeerslessfears wrote:

comment from Canada here,

I gotta think we have a decent system up here.

First weekend of Nov are provincial (state) high school champs

Second weekend are the national university champs

Third weekend is NCAA

Fourth weekend is Canadian Nationals.

it sounds like the USA has a lot more races to fit in, but i don't get why it is so complicated.

the focus seems to be on confusion rather than competition.

2 cents from a Canuck.

Not so Loonie. Thank you Northern friend.

Makes sense, as does having it on a course similar to Worlds, as does providing free coverage, attractive prize money the list goes on just from this thread. Surely USATF can sift out the many good suggestions presented and add some creativity.

Lots of great ideas on how to elevate the XC Nationals. Giving some sort of bye into the Outdoor 10k to the top ten sounds doable.

As with most things, money is the driving force. Whether it is the high application fee to host the championships preventing more clubs/municipalities from hosting (this one or the Club XCs) or the lack of prize money to the winners.

Making the top runners pay for flights, hotels etc., is ludicrous too.

If they really only had eight finishers in the citizen's race, the local OC is at fault for not marketing the event. In gorgeous San Diego, they should be able to get at least 200 runners for any race.

It seems this is complained about it every year.

Professional runners aren't going to show up to a race just to race. It's their job, and they are trying to make money or race at the highest level. The USATF cross country championships paid $2k for the WINNER, and less for each runner beyond that. They do not pay for any flights or hotels, so imagine spending $400 on travel and few hundred dollars on hotel and other things, you have to win the entire thing to barely make a $1k profit. A runner who will reasonably place 5th will lose money by going to the race. The race does not qualify you for any Team USA this year, so there's no benefit beyond running the race and potentially getting some potato chips as a prize.

The top runners who you would like to see run this race have contracts of tens of thousands of dollars and some over $100k. Why would they put forth such a big effort to make ($2k - expenses) if the race goes well, and less if it doesn't? They're better off training right now and getting ready for more meaningful races.

If the race has $10k for the win down to $1k for 10th place, and provided a little bit of travel assistance, you'd have a stacked race, but that's not the financial situation so it's not a stacked race.

The only reason it's a bit more competitive on a world cross country year is because people get some bonuses for making team USA or making the team can help them snag a sponsorship, and people want to represent team USA. But this year it's just another race with limited prize money and not a qualifier for anything.

coahc wrote:

Not sure I would blame the Aussies...world xc in Aarhus was an amazing meet. Unfortunately the US teams came unprepared for the challenge. Bathurst will offer another stern test and it will be interesting what American athletes will want to run a tough course in hot weather on Feb 19th 2023.

If and I mean if it comes to be an Olympic sport again it will raise in profile or better yet put some real prize money into nationals.

Aussies had to cancel because they incoherent COVID policy, hence why I blame them. With all the events and travel occuring in the world no reason they couldnt pull it off.

This is actually a really good idea to just combine all their cc championships into one big meet. It would be more cost effective, because running additional races in one day would cost way less than holding multiple separate meets, and like you said, the kids and clubs basically fund the meet and improve the atmosphere. You might get more sponsors too when combining it with the youth meet which helps fund it.

USATF should block outdoor champs and Olympic Trials in small out of the way villages in the middle of fly-over states, and only have them in major metropolitan areas with little humidity and rain in the summer. Choosing back-water hamlets have ruined running, track and field, and cross country in the US. No one watches running and cross country on TV anymore. The American people only watch the sprints every four years when the Olympics are held.