Cole Hocker probably will just be another Andrew Wheating

the macdaddy og yoo wrote:

OozmaKappa wrote:

Even Mu is not great. Mu is great for her age, but she's not great overall just yet.

If you take a look at 2021 top 5 lists for every event, the womens 800 is one of the weakest events currently. That detracts from the novelty of seeing teenagers dominate the event and win gold medals. The field is just much weaker than that of any other event to the point where a couple of teenaged phenoms can win medals.

To put it in perspective, an athlete of Mu's current caliber would not have medaled in the women's 10000m or 100m, and would have gotten bronze in many other events. But in the 800m, this year, she was all it took for a gold medal.

What a terrible take.

I'm factually correct. At Mu's age, in most other events, she would have had to settle for bronze. It's only because of how weak the 800m field is that she was able to snag her first gold medal in this olympic cycle rather than in 2024.

Now, come 2024 I think she has a good shot at elevating the status of the 800m herself, and should she win Gold then, it would make her truly great.

Cole is a bit unlucky, historically speaking, to come along right at the same time as Jakob who is clearly better and only 9 months older (though they were both 20 for the Oly final last summer). Cole would be getting significantly more global attention as the young achiever if not for Jakob. But whatever, things are what they are. Hopefully Cole wins or places high at Pre in May, medals in Eugene, and then gets over to Europe in August to run 3:27/12:54.

Kobbs Hessler wrote:

Cole is a bit unlucky, historically speaking, to come along right at the same time as Jakob who is clearly better and only 9 months older (though they were both 20 for the Oly final last summer). Cole would be getting significantly more global attention as the young achiever if not for Jakob. But whatever, things are what they are. Hopefully Cole wins or places high at Pre in May, medals in Eugene, and then gets over to Europe in August to run 3:27/12:54.

Hahaha. No way he runs 3:27. Maybe he gets 3:30 something if EVERYTHING goes well and its not gonna.

Lame troll attempt but the fact of the matter is Hocker is the only hero of those you've mentioned. Brazier is already done. A flash in the pan so no reason to get behind. Mu?? What had Mu done? Run a 1:55? Hocker runs that as repeats. Please

Hocker has already achieved more than Brazier by finishing 6th in the Olympics. Tell me Braziers finish in the Olympics?? A world champs medal is valued at 10x less than an Olympic one. Finishing 6th in the Olympics is more valued than a wc gold. A billion people watched Hocker in sixth while a couple million may have watched the WC final.

What world record are you talking about that Brazier has?? Please don't tell me you're talking about the friggin indoor 600?? Can you have a more obscure record?? Maybe Hocker will get the 1600 yard indoor record. Would that impress you so much as well??

Bottom line is Hocker is by far The man of the moment in American racing. He is the hero to the people.

Kobbs Hessler wrote:

Cole is a bit unlucky, historically speaking, to come along right at the same time as Jakob who is clearly better and only 9 months older (though they were both 20 for the Oly final last summer). Cole would be getting significantly more global attention as the young achiever if not for Jakob. But whatever, things are what they are. Hopefully Cole wins or places high at Pre in May, medals in Eugene, and then gets over to Europe in August to run 3:27/12:54.

That's being very generous to both Hocker and Yakob. A 3:28 is not insurmountable. Far from it, it itself is not on the level of being called great. Sure, it'd be great for a teenager, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking "great," period. We can't just extrapolate and assume Hocker's going to get down to 3:27.

OozmaKappa wrote:

high school xc coach wrote:

what's your flag?

I'm American. I just dont like how we view our middle distance runners the same way we view our sprinters. That's delusion, theyre not the same on the world stage. Achievement on the NCAA level doesnt mean anything for middle distance runners.

Mu shouldn’t be faulted for the quality of her competition. You can only beat the people available and she did that handily. She looked as though she could have done more if needed. Certainly there was no woman alive beating her at 800 m in 2021. That’s pretty great. I agree, to be one of the all time greats she’ll need to repeat at least in Eugene and Paris. I think she’ll scare the world record too. As for Hocker, he still has a ways to go to reach Mu’s level. Lagat’s AR is no joke, nor is a global medal in the 1500 over the next few years.

0/10 but I will entertain this. Yes DB has the indoor 600 WR and the 800 indoor AR. He has the outdoor AR in the 800 which he ran getting gold at Worlds. Hocker is not even in Brazier's building yet with a 6th at Olys. He has to call to walk in the door of the lobby. Stop the madness.

-10/10

If I need to paint a picture of the current scene I shall. Since you can't seem to wrap your head around it.

Brazier had some obscure records no one knows about or cares.

Hocker at the moment is at the Pinnacle of the American running pyramid. Brazier was close at some point but had tumbled way down. He's looking up at Cole and envying the greatness. And he's achieved all this at a younger age. Just enjoy this once in a lifetime megatalent.

OozmaKappa wrote:

the macdaddy og yoo wrote:

What a terrible take.

I'm factually correct. At Mu's age, in most other events, she would have had to settle for bronze. It's only because of how weak the 800m field is that she was able to snag her first gold medal in this olympic cycle rather than in 2024.

Now, come 2024 I think she has a good shot at elevating the status of the 800m herself, and should she win Gold then, it would make her truly great.

Doubling down on a terrible take. Bold.

High hopes wrote:

CopperRunner wrote:

3:50 mile? Olympic finals? National champ? Missing out on the NCAA record on a technicality? What’s your criteria for great?

They are the achievements of a good pro, nothing more. Track and field is an international sport and other than his appearance in the Olympic final, none of his other achievements would even be recognized by fans around the world. As someone else said, Athing Mu has achieved greatness, she's the hero you're looking for

Is she faster than Cole?

Here's the truth wrote:

TheSummerSoldier wrote:

0/10 but I will entertain this. Yes DB has the indoor 600 WR and the 800 indoor AR. He has the outdoor AR in the 800 which he ran getting gold at Worlds. Hocker is not even in Brazier's building yet with a 6th at Olys. He has to call to walk in the door of the lobby. Stop the madness.

-10/10

If I need to paint a picture of the current scene I shall. Since you can't seem to wrap your head around it.

Brazier had some obscure records no one knows about or cares.

Hocker at the moment is at the Pinnacle of the American running pyramid. Brazier was close at some point but had tumbled way down. He's looking up at Cole and envying the greatness. And he's achieved all this at a younger age. Just enjoy this once in a lifetime megatalent.

I know your just out here causing trouble, but let’s just set Brazier aside and Mu. Fisher, only 24, had a better year than Hocker. He was the most accomplished American distance runner in 2021.

I lost a lot of brain cells reading this thread.

Hocker not great because he didn’t win Olympic gold in a stacked field.

Mu not great despite winning Olympic gold in a dominant fashion and setting records.

Shut the f*ck up and never post here again.

1:55 is one of the weakest leading marks of 2021. It's about as weak as the 100mH, which doesnt get talked about much. It doesn't matter if she could have run faster, she didn't. Youre thinking completely backwards. There's no reason to assume someone could just go faster when they didnt. That's not "faulting her because of her competition," that's refusing to give her special treatment over the athletes that did deliver outsanding marks in 2021.

1:55 is not great, even if it wins medals, for the reasons I already explained. She certainly seems to have the potential to run a 1:53, but until she does Im holding off on calling her great and putting her in the same category as the Gideys, Hassans, and Thomson-Herahs of our sport.

Wise Old Man wrote:

Here's the truth wrote:

-10/10

If I need to paint a picture of the current scene I shall. Since you can't seem to wrap your head around it.

Brazier had some obscure records no one knows about or cares.

Hocker at the moment is at the Pinnacle of the American running pyramid. Brazier was close at some point but had tumbled way down. He's looking up at Cole and envying the greatness. And he's achieved all this at a younger age. Just enjoy this once in a lifetime megatalent.

I know your just out here causing trouble, but let’s just set Brazier aside and Mu. Fisher, only 24, had a better year than Hocker. He was the most accomplished American distance runner in 2021.

Yes, and I'm sure you're here being very impartial and objective.

Fisher is getting there but the 1500 is more respected of course. And thanks for pointing it out, Fisher is 24!

Cole mf Hocker has achieved all this already at 20!!! Wrap your head around this

Is English the first language for any of you? You can't use a word that has a defined meaning and then take things that fit the definition and claim that they don't. Just lay out the facts but don't assign false labels that are clear. Hocker is a great runner. Hocker is one of the greatest runners of all time.

Great - of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

Threads predicting failure always make me laugh because they almost always take a relatively safe bet and treat it as a bold prediction. The vast, vast majority of track athletes will never set an American record or medal at the WC/OG. Even athletes who have the tools and talent necessary to reach this level often just don't have the luck to have all the pieces come together. "Hocker will never be great" isn't a bold prediction. It is literally just the most likely outcome for Hocker, and it's a prediction that could be applied with a high degree of accuracy to any athlete who isn't already great. You could make the same prediction for every promising young athlete and you'll be right most of the time.

webber wrote:

Is English the first language for any of you? You can't use a word that has a defined meaning and then take things that fit the definition and claim that they don't. Just lay out the facts but don't assign false labels that are clear. Hocker is a great runner. Hocker is one of the greatest runners of all time.

Great - of an extent, amount, or intensity considerably above the normal or average.

LMAO You know youre grasping at straws when you resort to being hyperliteral and start busting out the dictionary definitions.

If we take average to mean the world population's average, then technically all professional athletes are great. Even amateur athletes are great. But, of course, that's not what we mean when say great in this context. Context. Do you even know what that is?

Anyway, to get to the point, there's levels to greatness. Being an all-time great could mean being top 5 all-time. It could mean being top 10.

Hocker is 85th. So, your club of "greatest runners of all time" has to include at least 85 people. Per event.

Here's the truth wrote:

Yes, and I'm sure you're here being very impartial and objective.

Fisher is getting there but the 1500 is more respected of course. And thanks for pointing it out, Fisher is 24!

Cole mf Hocker has achieved all this already at 20!!! Wrap your head around this

Among all the intentional (and kinda funny, in that it illustrates a bias that a lot of people have) bull on this thread, this is one point that I want to actually respond to, because I’ve seen even serious people think this way sometimes:

When talking about whether someone *is* great (descriptively, as in whether they’ve already accomplished great things) at the senior level, age doesn’t matter at all. Its about lining up and beating the best, running eye-popping times, and accomplishing things that stack up to all-time greats.

Where age can become a factor is predicting (prescriptively) whether someone will *become* great. If they’re accomplishing things that very few people their age have ever accomplished before, and those that have accomplished it near-uniformly became great, that likely (depending on the nature of the accomplishment) makes them a strong candidate to become great—and that’s something to get excited about, for sure, but is a different discussion than whether someone is an all-time great at the senior level.

But potential future performances don’t make you great—you have to actually accomplish great things. Having the potential to be great and $7 will get you a craft IPA at The Wild Duck.

As a related aside, I think a distinction between being great—as in, currently very near the top of the world—and being an all-time great—someone whose performances stack up against anyone who as ever competed at the level IMO for consideration—is something that is clearly missing from this discussion. (It also seems, to somehow get even more pedantic, that whether this discussion is about all athletes at the global senior level or whether we’ve limited the pool under consideration to American athletes has yet to be established).

Wise Old Man wrote:

Here's the truth wrote:

-10/10

If I need to paint a picture of the current scene I shall. Since you can't seem to wrap your head around it.

Brazier had some obscure records no one knows about or cares.

Hocker at the moment is at the Pinnacle of the American running pyramid. Brazier was close at some point but had tumbled way down. He's looking up at Cole and envying the greatness. And he's achieved all this at a younger age. Just enjoy this once in a lifetime megatalent.

I know your just out here causing trouble, but let’s just set Brazier aside and Mu. Fisher, only 24, had a better year than Hocker. He was the most accomplished American distance runner in 2021.

I think Chelimo was more accomplished, as he beat Grant Fisher at both the Trials and Olympics and won an Olympic medal.