A good example of this is Paul Tergat and Haile Geb. We all know Geb became the greatest track 10k runner of all time in the 90s. However Paul Tergat was better than him in XC in the 90s.
A good example of this is Paul Tergat and Haile Geb. We all know Geb became the greatest track 10k runner of all time in the 90s. However Paul Tergat was better than him in XC in the 90s.
Carmody ran 23:22 finishing 4th at Joe Piane while ND sat out their top 7. So as an 8th man, he has run 13:41.
Trucker Hat wrote:
That’s the challenge of this question. “Best 5th man” refers to XC, which is time irrelevant. There’s lots of solid XC runners that are slower in comparison to competition in the track. The only one who can give you a solid answer is McDonnell himself. Unless he’s been quoted on this we will likely never know.
Doug Clark would be the next best option.
I was 6th man in 1999… got maybe 38th overall?
Ran 28:34 about 4 months later
adamD wrote:
I was 6th man in 1999… got maybe 38th overall?
Ran 28:34 about 4 months later
Adam Dailey (or at least someone impersonating him) is correct. Dailey was 6th man in 1999, finishing 39th overall. In May of that 2000, he ran 28:34 at Stanford.
talented wins wrote:
Carmody ran 23:22 finishing 4th at Joe Piane while ND sat out their top 7. So as an 8th man, he has run 13:41.
I was never implying that Arkansas has the best 5th man now. I was interested in seeing sort of how this year's Arkansas team would stack up against the all-time great teams of the past in terms of time.
rojo wrote:
I am working on our weekly recap - the Week That Was - and it struck me that Arkanas' #5 this year may be a 29:04 guy. John McDonell obviously had a ton of legendary teams. Does anyone know what his best team was and who his best 5th man was?
I know comparing times from now to the 1980s and 1990s isn't great due to super spikes and so many more time trial races but it's pretty crazy to think a guy who might be their 5th has run 29:04.
LRC wrote:
At Arkansas' Chile Pepper Invite, in the men's race, the host Hogs, ranked 8th in the country, were just fifth with 192 points losing to three Division II schools, #1 Colorado Mines (39), #4 Augustan (131), and #8 Western Colorado (178). I imagine some old-timers were thinking, "Wow the Hogs have really fallen, they were so much better under John McDonnell."
That would be the completely wrong takeaway.
First of all, the Hogs deserve kudos for letting the DII teams race in their Invite and not scoring them in a separate division which we've seen done time and again and it drives us nuts.
Secondly, the Hogs were running their B team. Their first runner in the race, Myles Richter, ran quite well and was 2nd overall in 23:33.5. And he's hoping to be the Hogs #5. And he's run 29:04 for 10,000.
“Our depth is our strength. We’ve got four amazing guys up top and we’re looking to fill the fifth spot with 5-6-7. I’m already in that seven, I’m just looking to be that number five guy if that’s what I need to be," said Richter after the race.
The Hogs top 4 - all from Kenya and all who started their college careers at other colleges - are pretty strong indeed.
Arkansas Top 4 / PBs / Previous School
Amon Kemboi (13:33/28:55 - Campbell)
Gilbert Boit (13:37/28:09 - Tenn. Tech)
Emmanuel Cheboson (13:41/28:42 - Louisville)
Andrew Kibet (4:02 mile, 8:50 steeple - Hutchinson CC).
Yes, under coach Chris Bucknam, the Hogs have only been on the podium once at NCAAs but did John McDonnell ever have a 29:04 5th man?
LRC note. Rojo has researched the info and it's published now here:
https://www.letsrun.com/news/2021/10/wtw-road-records-keep-tumbling-down-college-xc-heats-up-and-250000-for-the-winner-of-the-nagoya-womens-marathon/
29:04 on the track or cross country?
track, xc times do not count for much
Should note Eric Henry was 5th IN THE NCAA XC MEET in 1990, the year before he was 5th man for Arkansas. Behind only Jonah Koech, Shannon Butler, Bob Kennedy, and Jon Brown.
Should also note, about your women's coverage slightly further down in the article: Laurie Henes is most definitely out of XC eligibility, as she finished up with her 4th place finish in Tucson in 1991 (the same meet where Eric Henry was apparently Arkansas' 5th man. Didn't notice him, just the four Hogs that were in front of me.)
Elly Henes, who is in the photo, completed her eligiblity much more recently.
Not that it matters, but I was Arkansas 6th, 3rd, 4th and 7th man in 77, 78, 79 and 80. I eventually ran 28:31 and 13:10 3M on the track for Arkansas (in 82). We were runners up in 80 behind UTEP - I had a pathetic race that day.
I was going to say you. Anyone who was on 4 national title winning X teams is a great runner. If you say you were the fifth man fine but anyone who can a make a X team and also run 3:35 is more like a top 1 or 2 runner. Fast enough to be on the X team and run very well and then in indoor and outdoor track fast enough to get points and contribute to top level relay teams.
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