Americans need to stop aiming for 2:09 marathons and start shooting for at least 2:05

Basically Americans have a hobby jogger get the finisher medal no matter what mindset.

East Africans have a get on the podium at a big money marathon or drop out if I can’t mindset.

Giving Stinson some props wrote:

Silly comment. There are many fast marathons but Americans like the slow Boston/NYC double or the downhill CIM.

Plus, too many, if not all, have no ability or guts to go "balls to the wall". I actually have respect for Stinson - he may crash and burn but at least he goes for it, unlike Ward and the others that are content to run a controlled pace in the 2nd or 3rd group hoping to "pick off those runners that fell off". Then finish in 2:13. Big whoopie.

I'll take a Stinson DNF but went with the leaders that the whole cast of wannabees running 2:11 - 2:15.

One marathon that looks interesting and fast is, surprisingly, the Disney Marathon, and I've heard it's a good PR course. In 2019, Male winner (Fredison Costa) came through 10 at 52, 13.1 at 68 low and finished in 2:18. Second place was 2:21 (Nick Hilton). Female winner (Giovanna Martins) came through in 2:45, just near OT "B" standard, and second place was Antonia Lins da Silva (2:47).

I used 2019 as that was the last in-person Disney; I think they have been virtual since.

Courses like that would be good for aspiring Americans to get fast at (no hills, blacktop, no weird conditions), and build momentum.

The thing about the WDW Marathon is that it's in Florida so the weather is trash.

we should make brosnan the coach of american marathoners and he'll say 2:09 is not fast its just not fast and it will fix everything

snowdays wrote:

we should make brosnan the coach of american marathoners and he'll say 2:09 is not fast its just not fast and it will fix everything

If anything he just proves the point. If our marathoners are conditioned to believe 2:09 isn't fast they'll, as a whole, start producing faster results.

My suggestion is for the best American runners to switch their gps watches to metric. Then start doing workouts (not easy runs) at 3:00 per kilometer pace or faster only. Once they fall off the pace then stop the workout. Try it for at least one training cycle and see how it works. If more did this then overtime maybe America might have more then just one guy whose a world class marathoner in Rupp.

So many dumb takes. No, it's not because Americans aim for 5:00/mile. No, it's not because the Olympic trials standard is 2:19.

It's the talent pipeline. In the U.S., the distance running talent pipeline goes like this:

The best high school distance runners excel at 800m-5K XC. If they do quite well, they move on to college running. There are lots of college teams, and many thousands of the best runners continue.

The best college distance runners excel at 800-10K. At the end of college, the funnel for having a viable career as a pro runner is exceptionally tight. Out of thousands of college runners, maybe a few dozen stand out enough to get a pro contract that allows them to continue training at a high level.

And look at the results: we have recent world leaders, Olympic medals and top 10 finishers at 800m-10K.

Now look at the marathon pipeline. If you've got the genetics for great marathon running, you're probably a decent but unspectacular 3200/5K runner in HS. Maybe you run in college, maybe not. In college, you're a pretty good 10K runner, but you don't really have the wheels for 5K and below. Basically, a niche player. Probably not getting a scholarship, although you might be solid scorer for your XC team. When your college career ends, you probably haven't done the kinds of things that get shoe companies to throw money at you. You can move to the roads and finally train for the distances that suit you best (if you're even aware of that fact, instead of thinking of yourself as too slow to really be any good at top-level running), but it's on your own dime while you're trying to establish a career. Anyone looking at it rationally decides to enjoy a few decades of hobby jogging at best.

So that's where we are today. A few stars who can succeed at any distance from 1500-marathon show up every year, but there's no reason to think they're better marathon runners than the kids who would succeed specifically at that distance. And we select against those kids at the HS level, then again at the college level, then again when handing out pro contracts.

If you want to see a few sub-2:05 marathoners, then we need a lot more sub-2:10 marathoners. If we want sub-2:10 to be common, we need way more sub-2:20 marathoners, followed by an army of sub-2:30 marathoners. The shortest path to get there is by bringing the marathon and/or HM into the NCAA system somehow so college-age marathon talent can be identified.

So it would be dumb and counterproductive to set the OTQ standard to 2:12 or whatever, because it would kick out one of the few supports remaining for the sub-2:20 crowd. It would just speed up the process of reducing U.S. men's marathoning to Galen Rupp (one of those stars at any distance), who's not all that far from retiring and being replaced by no one.

Some posters have stated it is mental. B.S. U.S. is a nation of strong athletic 5'11" 175 lbs. men. Going back to pre-modern Olympics, it was 220 yards and 440 yards, then throughout modern Olympic era, U.S. men have been best at long sprints. The best event, 400m. Since U.S. is a nation that is best at 400m, U.S. will have great 100m & 200m guys and great 600m guys. U.S. can be competitive at 800m & 1500m too. Usually the best 1500m men in U.S. were teenage 800m young men. Do you think in Ethiopia they are typing on their version of let'srun complaining about the lack of 100m & 200m sprinters? Do you think in Ethiopia, they are saying Ethiopian men are not winning 100m & 200m medals due to mental approach?

600yd/600m man wrote:

Some posters have stated it is mental. B.S. U.S. is a nation of strong athletic 5'11" 175 lbs. men. Going back to pre-modern Olympics, it was 220 yards and 440 yards, then throughout modern Olympic era, U.S. men have been best at long sprints. The best event, 400m. Since U.S. is a nation that is best at 400m, U.S. will have great 100m & 200m guys and great 600m guys. U.S. can be competitive at 800m & 1500m too. Usually the best 1500m men in U.S. were teenage 800m young men. Do you think in Ethiopia they are typing on their version of let'srun complaining about the lack of 100m & 200m sprinters? Do you think in Ethiopia, they are saying Ethiopian men are not winning 100m & 200m medals due to mental approach?

So why are there so many fast 2:06 type Japanese marathoners but not Chinese marathoners? There’s 2 billion people in China and last time I checked they have similar body types.

Fax wrote:

as read on Letsrun wrote:

That should be the solution for every runner, right? I'm currently in 18 minute 5K shape and I need to raise the bar, so my next race I will shoot for sub 13.

Except this isn't about individuals, but rather a culture.

Yes, of course.

If only we could "acculturate" ourselves to the idea that it's better to run a 2:05 instead of a 2:10, no doubt

an unstoppable horde of American marathon runners will emerge to obliterate that elusive 2:05 barrier.

You see the Japanese have thrown a wrench in it’s the just the genetics argument. They have the mindset and use the metric. Get aboard the mindset metric train friends.

You guys are clueless to how elites train and prepare for marathons. That’s why you made the exact dumb comment I was making fun of. But please, keep thinking you’re clever.

Fax wrote:

The times our men shoot for are considered beyond disastrous for African runners. We need to normalize better times instead of being satisfied eeking under 2:10.

Your logic is so stupid. So you think that if a runner has a goal of sub 2:10 they just stop setting goals? Of course not. Just like a runner who is running 2:10, at one point they probably had a goal to run sub 5:00 in the mile (slower than 2:10 marathon pace)... Once they achieved that goal they set a new goal, and then another goal, and another goal. Americans trying to run sub 2:10 is not an end goal, it's a stepping stone if they are able to achieve that. Any runner who runs under 2:10 will then have a goal of running under 2:09, and so on and so forth. This is just as stupid as the arguments who say "Americans are held back by a sub 5:00 mile pace mentality"... Guess what happens once you have run a certain race at sub 5:00 pace? You try to run 4:50 pace! Not rocket science.

U. Raynuss wrote:

Fax wrote:

Except this isn't about individuals, but rather a culture.

Yes, of course.

If only we could "acculturate" ourselves to the idea that it's better to run a 2:05 instead of a 2:10, no doubt

an unstoppable horde of American marathon runners will emerge to obliterate that elusive 2:05 barrier.

Do you think the fact most of our "best" marathoners have PBs just under 2:10 is because that's the physical limit of what our athletes are capable of? No, it's because they feel content pushing themselves under that barrier, but no further.

Get Metric wrote:

My suggestion is for the best American runners to switch their gps watches to metric. Then start doing workouts (not easy runs) at 3:00 per kilometer pace or faster only. Once they fall off the pace then stop the workout. Try it for at least one training cycle and see how it works. If more did this then overtime maybe America might have more then just one guy whose a world class marathoner in Rupp.

Again, this is so stupid. 3:00 per kilometer is about 4:50 pace. Why not just run 4:50 pace until you can't and then stop? You picking some arbitrary number is idiotic. The only way switching to kilometers could be better is that it's a shorter distance and you get more immediate feedback on your split. But at the same time, you could just split your watch at every half mile and it's even better than kilometers. The 5:00 per mile vs 3 minute per kilometer argument is so stupid. Just run 4:50 mile pace.

East Africans and Japanese dominate Marathoning

Similarities…

Both have large developmental programs for distance running

Both emphasize aerobic development

Both use the metric system and run Marathon type workouts at 3:00 kilometer pace