Scott's thots wrote:
Just because some guy came along and got cheater shoes, cheater light and the froome_wiggins_farah secret cocktail and runs faster than bekele doesn't mean anything
Bekele has the WR as far as I am concerned
Just in case you missed it, no one is really all that concerned with who you think holds the WR versus who actually holds the WR.
Non of them are GOATs. Haile set 27 world records in distances ranging from 2k to the marathon.
dmitlof1 wrote:
I typically agree with your thoughtful analysis but I don’t agree in this case. Even if Kipchoge wins gold in Tokyo, he still is worse than Bekele in nearly every important metric. Assuming he wins gold this is how they stack up:
Olympic Medals:
Bekele-4 (3 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-4 (2 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
WC Medals:
Bekele-6 (5 golds, 1 bronze)
Kipchoge-2 (1 gold, 1 silver)
Advantage: Bekele
World XC Senior Medals:
Bekele-12 (11 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-0 (1 gold in the junior race)
Advantage: Bekele
World Outdoor Records set:
Bekele-3 (5k, 10k twice, both since broken)
Kipchoge-1 (Marathon, still standing)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
PBs:
Bekele-7:25,12:37,26:17,60:09,2:01:41
Kipchoge-7:27,12:46,26:49,59:25,2:01:39
Advantage: Bekele slightly
World Marathon Major wins:
Bekele-2 (2016 Berlin, 2019 Berlin)
Kipchoge-8 (2014 Chicago, 2015 Berlin, 2015 London, 2016 London, 2017 Berlin, 2018 London, 2018 Berlin, 2019 London)
Advantage: Kipchoge
Longevity (# of years between first and last WC/Oly medal)
Bekele-6 years (2003-2009)
Kipchoge-18 years (2003-2021)
Advantage: Kipchoge
The only real case to be made for Kipchoge’s GOAT status is his number of world marathon majors and his longevity. Any other metric of greatness and Bekele is better. Not trying to discredit Kipchoge at all, he’s had an amazing career and deserves a mention among the all time greats, but for now King Kenenisa is still the greatest.
Nice, thorough summary and I agree. But I would argue that with PBs it is just advantage Bekele, not slight advantage. Kipchoge only has a better marathon PR and it's only by 2 seconds. Bekele also has a better 1500 PB. Basically, at any distance besides the marathon it's not even close that Bekele had a better career.
dmitlof1 wrote:
I typically agree with your thoughtful analysis but I don’t agree in this case. Even if Kipchoge wins gold in Tokyo, he still is worse than Bekele in nearly every important metric. Assuming he wins gold this is how they stack up:
Olympic Medals:
Bekele-4 (3 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-4 (2 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
WC Medals:
Bekele-6 (5 golds, 1 bronze)
Kipchoge-2 (1 gold, 1 silver)
Advantage: Bekele
World XC Senior Medals:
Bekele-12 (11 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-0 (1 gold in the junior race)
Advantage: Bekele
World Outdoor Records set:
Bekele-3 (5k, 10k twice, both since broken)
Kipchoge-1 (Marathon, still standing)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
PBs:
Bekele-7:25,12:37,26:17,60:09,2:01:41
Kipchoge-7:27,12:46,26:49,59:25,2:01:39
Advantage: Bekele slightly
World Marathon Major wins:
Bekele-2 (2016 Berlin, 2019 Berlin)
Kipchoge-8 (2014 Chicago, 2015 Berlin, 2015 London, 2016 London, 2017 Berlin, 2018 London, 2018 Berlin, 2019 London)
Advantage: Kipchoge
Longevity (# of years between first and last WC/Oly medal)
Bekele-6 years (2003-2009)
Kipchoge-18 years (2003-2021)
Advantage: Kipchoge
The only real case to be made for Kipchoge’s GOAT status is his number of world marathon majors and his longevity. Any other metric of greatness and Bekele is better. Not trying to discredit Kipchoge at all, he’s had an amazing career and deserves a mention among the all time greats, but for now King Kenenisa is still the greatest.
Quality info and I appreciate the response, but I don’t think you can simply pick the winners of your seven categories and tally it up that Bekele wins 5-2. These subjective discussions of the G.O.A.T.s are never apples-to-apples, and every achievement and shortcoming must be weighted differently, contextually.
I think many people are casually diminishing the weight that being the greatest marathoner ever carries in this argument. Particularly if he wins gold in Tokyo, Bikila, Shorter, Rodgers, Lopes, Gebrselassie, et al will be reduced to also-rans in this contest.
If he were merely the fastest and most consistent marathoner we’d ever seen over the past ~8 years, we’d have to make room for him on a top-10 list of greatest distance runners. But consider his classic victory over El G and Bekele way back in ‘03, his two Olympic 5k medals, and that he’s the clear choice for #2 5k man of the ‘00s decade, and it’s like multiplying his career greatness.
If he wins in Tokyo he will be the greatest marathoner in history (by a large margin), with the greatest longevity in history (World Championship 5k gold in ‘03 & Olympic Marathon gold in ‘21...find someone who can match that), and on the short-lists for greatest range in history and greatest 5k runners in history = distance running G.O.A.T.
And, even if he’ll get flack here for the sub-2 projects, I don’t think it hurts his case that multiple companies were so impressed with his ability that they sunk a lot of time, logistical effort and money to arrange unprecedented Marathon time-trials just for him. Moreover, the sub-2 marathon stunt (and the legitimate standing WR) made him far more widely known in popular culture than Bekele ever was, which isn’t what’s important, but again it doesn’t hurt.
Woof, bad take.
John Wesley Harding wrote:
dmitlof1 wrote:
I typically agree with your thoughtful analysis but I don’t agree in this case. Even if Kipchoge wins gold in Tokyo, he still is worse than Bekele in nearly every important metric. Assuming he wins gold this is how they stack up:
Olympic Medals:
Bekele-4 (3 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-4 (2 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
WC Medals:
Bekele-6 (5 golds, 1 bronze)
Kipchoge-2 (1 gold, 1 silver)
Advantage: Bekele
World XC Senior Medals:
Bekele-12 (11 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-0 (1 gold in the junior race)
Advantage: Bekele
World Outdoor Records set:
Bekele-3 (5k, 10k twice, both since broken)
Kipchoge-1 (Marathon, still standing)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
PBs:
Bekele-7:25,12:37,26:17,60:09,2:01:41
Kipchoge-7:27,12:46,26:49,59:25,2:01:39
Advantage: Bekele slightly
World Marathon Major wins:
Bekele-2 (2016 Berlin, 2019 Berlin)
Kipchoge-8 (2014 Chicago, 2015 Berlin, 2015 London, 2016 London, 2017 Berlin, 2018 London, 2018 Berlin, 2019 London)
Advantage: Kipchoge
Longevity (# of years between first and last WC/Oly medal)
Bekele-6 years (2003-2009)
Kipchoge-18 years (2003-2021)
Advantage: Kipchoge
The only real case to be made for Kipchoge’s GOAT status is his number of world marathon majors and his longevity. Any other metric of greatness and Bekele is better. Not trying to discredit Kipchoge at all, he’s had an amazing career and deserves a mention among the all time greats, but for now King Kenenisa is still the greatest.
Quality info and I appreciate the response, but I don’t think you can simply pick the winners of your seven categories and tally it up that Bekele wins 5-2. These subjective discussions of the G.O.A.T.s are never apples-to-apples, and every achievement and shortcoming must be weighted differently, contextually.
I think many people are casually diminishing the weight that being the greatest marathoner ever carries in this argument. Particularly if he wins gold in Tokyo, Bikila, Shorter, Rodgers, Lopes, Gebrselassie, et al will be reduced to also-rans in this contest.
If he were merely the fastest and most consistent marathoner we’d ever seen over the past ~8 years, we’d have to make room for him on a top-10 list of greatest distance runners. But consider his classic victory over El G and Bekele way back in ‘03, his two Olympic 5k medals, and that he’s the clear choice for #2 5k man of the ‘00s decade, and it’s like multiplying his career greatness.
If he wins in Tokyo he will be the greatest marathoner in history (by a large margin), with the greatest longevity in history (World Championship 5k gold in ‘03 & Olympic Marathon gold in ‘21...find someone who can match that), and on the short-lists for greatest range in history and greatest 5k runners in history = distance running G.O.A.T.
And, even if he’ll get flack here for the sub-2 projects, I don’t think it hurts his case that multiple companies were so impressed with his ability that they sunk a lot of time, logistical effort and money to arrange unprecedented Marathon time-trials just for him. Moreover, the sub-2 marathon stunt (and the legitimate standing WR) made him far more widely known in popular culture than Bekele ever was, which isn’t what’s important, but again it doesn’t hurt.
You’re making a strong case for sure.
Most people here are debating who is the goat based on their overall respective bodies of work across all distances and surfaces. That’s fair and KB is/was better. However, I think a better way is to think about who was most dominant at their best event. For me, EK in the marathon is better than KB or any other event, whatever event(s) you wish to choose for him. EK in the marathon is > KB on the track in the 5K/10K. Somebody is going to mention KB in cross, but c’mon, that’s too minor. If EK wins in Tokyo, then he has only one peer in the history of running, Bolt.
How dare you!
John Wesley Harding wrote:
dmitlof1 wrote:
I typically agree with your thoughtful analysis but I don’t agree in this case. Even if Kipchoge wins gold in Tokyo, he still is worse than Bekele in nearly every important metric. Assuming he wins gold this is how they stack up:
Olympic Medals:
Bekele-4 (3 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-4 (2 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
WC Medals:
Bekele-6 (5 golds, 1 bronze)
Kipchoge-2 (1 gold, 1 silver)
Advantage: Bekele
World XC Senior Medals:
Bekele-12 (11 golds, 1 silver)
Kipchoge-0 (1 gold in the junior race)
Advantage: Bekele
World Outdoor Records set:
Bekele-3 (5k, 10k twice, both since broken)
Kipchoge-1 (Marathon, still standing)
Advantage: Bekele slightly
PBs:
Bekele-7:25,12:37,26:17,60:09,2:01:41
Kipchoge-7:27,12:46,26:49,59:25,2:01:39
Advantage: Bekele slightly
World Marathon Major wins:
Bekele-2 (2016 Berlin, 2019 Berlin)
Kipchoge-8 (2014 Chicago, 2015 Berlin, 2015 London, 2016 London, 2017 Berlin, 2018 London, 2018 Berlin, 2019 London)
Advantage: Kipchoge
Longevity (# of years between first and last WC/Oly medal)
Bekele-6 years (2003-2009)
Kipchoge-18 years (2003-2021)
Advantage: Kipchoge
The only real case to be made for Kipchoge’s GOAT status is his number of world marathon majors and his longevity. Any other metric of greatness and Bekele is better. Not trying to discredit Kipchoge at all, he’s had an amazing career and deserves a mention among the all time greats, but for now King Kenenisa is still the greatest.
Quality info and I appreciate the response, but I don’t think you can simply pick the winners of your seven categories and tally it up that Bekele wins 5-2. These subjective discussions of the G.O.A.T.s are never apples-to-apples, and every achievement and shortcoming must be weighted differently, contextually.
I think many people are casually diminishing the weight that being the greatest marathoner ever carries in this argument. Particularly if he wins gold in Tokyo, Bikila, Shorter, Rodgers, Lopes, Gebrselassie, et al will be reduced to also-rans in this contest.
If he were merely the fastest and most consistent marathoner we’d ever seen over the past ~8 years, we’d have to make room for him on a top-10 list of greatest distance runners. But consider his classic victory over El G and Bekele way back in ‘03, his two Olympic 5k medals, and that he’s the clear choice for #2 5k man of the ‘00s decade, and it’s like multiplying his career greatness.
If he wins in Tokyo he will be the greatest marathoner in history (by a large margin), with the greatest longevity in history (World Championship 5k gold in ‘03 & Olympic Marathon gold in ‘21...find someone who can match that), and on the short-lists for greatest range in history and greatest 5k runners in history = distance running G.O.A.T.
And, even if he’ll get flack here for the sub-2 projects, I don’t think it hurts his case that multiple companies were so impressed with his ability that they sunk a lot of time, logistical effort and money to arrange unprecedented Marathon time-trials just for him. Moreover, the sub-2 marathon stunt (and the legitimate standing WR) made him far more widely known in popular culture than Bekele ever was, which isn’t what’s important, but again it doesn’t hurt.
I don't think it's adding up seven categories as much as weighing Bekele's track and XC accomplishments against Kipchoge's marathon accomplishments. Yes, Kipchoge's win in 1983 was great but both Bekele and El G were doubling back. He may be number 2 in the 5K in that period but I'm not sure it's so unequivocal. He was 1-1 against El G in championships and 0-3 against Lagat if you count 2011 (2007, 2009, 2011). Did he ever beat Lagat in a 5K?
And it's not as if Bekele did nothing in the marathon. Consider this: If Bekele was just 3 seconds faster in Berlin we would not even be having this discussion.
Id argue Bekele in the 10,000 has a case to be as dominant as EK in the marathon. 5 straight Global Championship wins, a world record, and undefeated during his prime in the event.
Debatable. I think Bekele was more dominant.
Watch Bekele 2008 5000 olympics. 7:35 for last 3km means 2:31X in last 3km. He had 4:56 in last 2km and closed in 53. Kipchoge was defeated there. This was a fresh Kipchoge getting walloped by Bekele. Nobody comes close to closing that fast in a 5km. Also watch 2005 world cross where kipchoge tries to match Bekele in the long race. Kipchoge is so spent he goes from 2nd to 4th in the last 20 meters. Looked like a wet noodle. Sure… we know that Kipchoge had the better marathon numbers and broke barriers but we also know Kenny b would have done that and more had he stayed healthy. It’s blasphemy my man .. what a damn shame! Lol
Wise Old Man wrote:
Most people here are debating who is the goat based on their overall respective bodies of work across all distances and surfaces. That’s fair and KB is/was better. However, I think a better way is to think about who was most dominant at their best event. For me, EK in the marathon is better than KB or any other event, whatever event(s) you wish to choose for him. EK in the marathon is > KB on the track in the 5K/10K. Somebody is going to mention KB in cross, but c’mon, that’s too minor. If EK wins in Tokyo, then he has only one peer in the history of running, Bolt.
Nice point to bring up but Bekele was just as dominant in the 10,000 as Kipchoge in the marathon from 2003-2009
Kipchoge got crushed by Bekele repeatedly in their primes. He is the greatest marathoner ever by far but not even close to Bekele overall. I think that take is indefensible.
Haile Gebrselassie (ETH)
World Record over 2000m, 3000m, 5000m, 10,000m, Half Marathon, and Marathon
World Medals in 1500m, 3000m, 5000m, 10,000m, Half Marathon, and Cross Country
Doubt Bekele or Kichoge had World Records from 1500m to Marathon at some point in their careers.
Bekele is still the GOAT even if Kipchoge wins in Tokyo. Gebrselassie has a better claim to the title than Kipchoge does.
No disrespect to Kipchoge who is still one of the greatest and already the marathon GOAT by a wide margin.
dmitlof1 > John Wesley Harding, that's for sure.
Wise Old Man wrote:
Most people here are debating who is the goat based on their overall respective bodies of work across all distances and surfaces. That’s fair and KB is/was better. However, I think a better way is to think about who was most dominant at their best event. For me, EK in the marathon is better than KB or any other event, whatever event(s) you wish to choose for him. EK in the marathon is > KB on the track in the 5K/10K. Somebody is going to mention KB in cross, but c’mon, that’s too minor. If EK wins in Tokyo, then he has only one peer in the history of running, Bolt.
No way, Bekele in his prime was untouchable in the 10000.
you don't say wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
Most people here are debating who is the goat based on their overall respective bodies of work across all distances and surfaces. That’s fair and KB is/was better. However, I think a better way is to think about who was most dominant at their best event. For me, EK in the marathon is better than KB or any other event, whatever event(s) you wish to choose for him. EK in the marathon is > KB on the track in the 5K/10K. Somebody is going to mention KB in cross, but c’mon, that’s too minor. If EK wins in Tokyo, then he has only one peer in the history of running, Bolt.
No way, Bekele in his prime was untouchable in the 10000.
Ok, fair enough. Kipchoge is his prime was untouchable in the marathon (2014-19), and given the nature of that race, I think this is a more impressive feat than domination in the 10K. However, arguing against KB greatness is a fool’s errand, so I’ll stop.
Isn't Bekele like 15 and 2 vs Kipchoge outside of the marathon? Kipchoge was nowhere near close to being even considered in the GOAT discussion until he dominated the marathon. That automatically disqualifies him from overall GOAT status. After he won that WC at 18 he was not a heavyweight for nearly a decade. These boards have a marathon bias and it shows. Dude won one major track race against Bekele and got absolutely spanked every single time after and got destroyed at World XC by Bekele. In his prime Kipchoge failed to qualify for Kenya in the 5000 prompting his move to the marathon. He's not the GOAT of distance running, period. The marathon? Yeah it's him but it looks like his time will be over soon. You can't be the GOAT of distance running when you have someone else defeating you in embarrassing fashion on the regular.