Renato,
Thanks much again.
Yes another book would be very useful.
Renato,
Thanks much again.
Yes another book would be very useful.
bemused wrote:
god !!! reading this thread and others like it gives me a sore head. running is a simple act which involves putting one foot in front of the other at various speeds. in those posts by renato and tinman i have never seen so much jargon in all my life. STOP TRYING TO COMPLICATE RUNNING !!!!!!! just get the bloody hard graft done !!!
In the pantheon of stupid posts, I'd give you a top 5 spot, and that's saying a lot for Letsrun.com.
Saying, just "go out and run" is a lot like saying to a quarterback, "just go out and hit a lot of receivers for touchdowns."
There's more to it than that, IMBECILE.
Renato Canova wrote:
e) But, if an athlete has an AnT of 16 km/h, he must use the GENERAL PERIOD for raising to 17 or 18. So, he has in any case to increase volume and speed of his long run.
Tinman and Renato, what great posts!
Renato, I have 2 comments:
1. I cannot agree about Lydiard and 800m runners. Wilfred Bungei competes in February and March during indoor, then in June, July and August for track.
There is plenty of time from August to February to have a big base. There are no 800m competitions then, and the important 800m races are in the summer. Indoors, nothing matters. No one cares so much about indoor track as about outdoor.
Building a big base need not be all SLOW running either, as you said. During his basic periods, Lydiard had a lot of tempo threshold running at fast aerobic paces.
Also striding and short 100-150m speedy runs to retain basic speed. Hill exercises and technique work were a part of this as well.
Not only slow running.
2. I don't think a 1:45 runner needs to be in 1:47 shape in December.
Why would this be? To have a 1:47 shape, you need even a lot of anaerobic work in the middle of December in the winter, months and months from a competition. An athlete training 51-53 400's on Christmas cannot possibly maintain and improve this intensity for April, May and June. So why not shift the focus to something else? Develop aerobic endurance, use hills, raise the lactate threshold, improve 200m speed, but no need for hard, 400-600m reps at 1:47 pace if this is not needed for 7 months.
Thank you for your posting. Please always keep writing Renato and Tinman both.
Using the 5% fitness rule, then a 1:45 800m runner would be in 1:50.25 shape in the winter time or during non-specialized training. I would estimate that Seb Coe, in his racing days, would be able to run 1:46-1:47 without specialized training and drop 5% to his world best times by the end of the racing season (around 1:41.73-1:42 and change).
To the poster who thinks that running well is as simple as just putting one foot in front of the other, why did you bother to even read a thread primarily focused on complex training principles and methods? Go to Dyestat.com and hang out with the kiddies.
Tinman wrote:
Using the 5% fitness rule, then a 1:45 800m runner would be in 1:50.25 shape in the winter time or during non-specialized training. I would estimate that Seb Coe, in his racing days, would be able to run 1:46-1:47 without specialized training and drop 5% to his world best times by the end of the racing season (around 1:41.73-1:42 and change).
To the poster who thinks that running well is as simple as just putting one foot in front of the other, why did you bother to even read a thread primarily focused on complex training principles and methods? Go to Dyestat.com and hang out with the kiddies.
Tinman wrote:
To the poster who thinks that running well is as simple as just putting one foot in front of the other, why did you bother to even read a thread primarily focused on complex training principles and methods? Go to Dyestat.com and hang out with the kiddies.
YES!
Tinman, thanks for your great posts as usual. I was reading your post concerning the use of reps instead of intervals for developing power. My question is, what should an athlete do to get that speed endurance then? The reason I ask is during a 1500m race where I am trying to hit 1200m in let's say 2:59-3:00, I find I have to really push harder than the other athletes around me from 900-1200m, usually leaving me out of the mix in the final sprint with a 3:44-45 when others are in the 3:41-42 range. I feel that if I could be more relaxed from 900-1200, I could use my footspeed (former 800 runner) to close in the last 300...so, in my case is that a problem with speed endurance, or something else? Any ideas on how to correct this with some different workouts?
Thanks
20k boy wrote:
So Tinman how do you apply this theory to half marathon training? I understand the terms well but not sure how it would apply to this distance. Is it a case of AnT being improved in the fundemetal period then training specific pace during the special period?.
Aerobic elements of performance, endurance, stamina, and stength play a major role in the half-marahton peformance, so the majority of training for the half should be focused in that direction. However, faster than 96% of max VO2 training can be used too (that is, faster than 5k pace), but not necessarily in high quantity and not necessarily just before the big race. Rather, reps faster than 5k pace would substantively have to be done in phases of training prior to the specialization phase (or at least before the last 6 weeks before peaking). In the last phase prior to the big race, faster reps should not be a primary emphasis. Perhaps a small amount as maintenance, but paces in or near half-marathon pace are the most important element of preparing to race the half-marathon, by far.
I estimate that a runner needs to be 5%, no more, from their peak fitness during the general preparatory phase of training.
Renato
If this is true, how do Kenyans run good after taking a long break. Sometimes we here how they go on 2 or so month break before winning big marathons only months later.
thanks
Renato
Also do you think it is no good for someone to spend months of just easy running after taking along break of running (4-8 weeks) due to injury. do you have your athletes working at max intensity not along after resuming a training schedule from a break.
thanks, you are the best.
Renato, Tinman,
I am eternally grateful for the great advice. It is all so logical, yet difficult to conceptualize until it is spelled out in a comprehensive manner.
I think it is great that guys with so much enthusiasm and knowledge take the time to help less informed people with their training.
Awesome stuff.
The jerk who has been hijacking Renato Canova's name and posting hundreds of repetitive and immature posts over the Summer (Renato eats poopies) goes to Syracuse University. If the athletes that now attend Syracuse cannot identify and discipline their own, I propose that we blame all of them for ruining this message board.
Which one do you think he is? We need to lynch the perp.
Tinman:
Can you explain what you mean by Aerobic Stamina being 81 to 90% of VO2 max, then in the next paragraph you say "If you want to develop your aerobic stamina (1500-800 pace)..." Wouldn't 800-1500 pace be faster than VO2 max pace, in other words more than 100% VO2 max?
Frank Serpico wrote:
Tinman, thanks for your great posts as usual. I was reading your post concerning the use of reps instead of intervals for developing power. My question is, what should an athlete do to get that speed endurance then? The reason I ask is during a 1500m race where I am trying to hit 1200m in let's say 2:59-3:00, I find I have to really push harder than the other athletes around me from 900-1200m, usually leaving me out of the mix in the final sprint with a 3:44-45 when others are in the 3:41-42 range. I feel that if I could be more relaxed from 900-1200, I could use my footspeed (former 800 runner) to close in the last 300...so, in my case is that a problem with speed endurance, or something else? Any ideas on how to correct this with some different workouts?
Thanks
Frank: If your 3k time doesn't match up with your 1500m time, then I recommend you do some 3k paced reps so that you elevate your aerobic power. You already have very good 800m speed, so your weakness, then, is aeorbic power. To reiterate an earlier post, be sure to have comprehensive training. Excluding any key element is not a good idea. Running 1500m pace is important, sure, and so is 800m and 400m pace, but without the balance there is an inablity to transfer that speed to race performance in a 1500m.
Off the top, about 4 months before your key race, start doing longer 5k paced reps, along with shorter reps on the track that are faster and hill reps from 50m to 600m. Example: run 4-5 x 200m at 10k to 5k pace, jog 100m, then do 3 x 1500-1600m at 5k pace, jog 300-400m between for recovery, then do 3-5 x 200m at 800m pace, jog 200m between. You can do modest anaerobic stamina workouts too such as 8 x 300m at 1500m pace, jog 300m, then 8 x 100m at 800m pace, jog 100m.
About 8 weeks before your big race do some 1k reps at your 3k race pace and always finish off the workout with shorter but faster reps. Example, run 4-5 x 200 at 10k to 5k pace, jog 100m, then do 4-5 x 1km at 3k race pace, jog 600m between each, then do 3-4 x 300m at close to 800m pace (a second or two slower is fine, jog 300m). You can do anaerobic stamina workouts such as sets of 300 at opening 1500m pace,jog 200m, 500m at 1500m pace with a surge to 800m from the 200-300m mark or from the 300-400m mark. Jog 800m between sets. At your level, you can do 4 sets.
Then, about 4 weeks before, use complex workouts. Example:
4-5 x 200m at 10-5k pace, jog 100m, then 1500-1600 at 5k pace, jog 300-400, 1200 at slightly faster than 5k pace, jog 300m, 1k at 3k pace, jog 600m, then 600, 500, 300 quite fast (do changes of pace within from 1500 to 400m speed) with equal length jog recoveries.
A another workout would be 2 x 1200 at 3k, jog 400m between, then 3-4 x 600m with negative splits (1500m pace for 400, 800m pace for the last 200m) or change of pace with the middle 200m at 800m and the first and last 200m at 1500m pace.
Stop all long workouts within the last 9 days before a key race and just do maintenance stuff and short, sharp time trails; say 600m quick, jog-rest 10-12 minutes, then 300m quick.
Coach T.
Tinman, thank you very much. This makes perfect sense and helps a lot!
-Frank
I want to second this post, thanks for coming out this is great information....
NZ800mMan wrote:
Renato, Tinman,
I am eternally grateful for the great advice. It is all so logical, yet difficult to conceptualize until it is spelled out in a comprehensive manner.
I think it is great that guys with so much enthusiasm and knowledge take the time to help less informed people with their training.
Awesome stuff.
Peter wrote:
Tinman:
Can you explain what you mean by Aerobic Stamina being 81 to 90% of VO2 max, then in the next paragraph you say "If you want to develop your aerobic stamina (1500-800 pace)..." Wouldn't 800-1500 pace be faster than VO2 max pace, in other words more than 100% VO2 max?
---------------------------------------------------
If I wrote aerobic stamina in front of 1500-800m pace, it was a typo. It is anaerobic stamina that I intended to say, about 105-115% of VO2 max.
Coach T.
Peter:
Actually, I think you read it wrong. I did say if you want to improve anaerobic stamina (1500-800m pace), then you need to develop aerobic power and aerobic strength first. NO worries, mate, it all works out!
Quote:
Now what if an athlete, like myself, has the following characteristics:
400M PR: 49.7
800m PR: 1:50.3
1500m PR: 3:49.48
3000M PR: 8:28.1
- Struggle with long reps and high volume
- lactate threshold: 3:23km/17.8km/hr
- very fast over 60-100m, and struggles to maintain speed.
- has characteristically very high lactate values for even moderately paced work: i.e. 5km reps, for example 5 x 1km at 3:00 = Bla of 7.5-8mmol. At 800m aerobic support, i.e 4 x 600m at 1:31, 4min rec, Bla at 12-13mmol.
I would like to know what direction, based on this info, you might think my "SPECFIC TALENT" might be in? And a suggested approach to draw the best from this talent.[/quote]
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My analysis:
It is likely that your aerobic power is not as well developed as your lactic tolerance and anaeorobic stamina. Your 400-800m ratio is good, but your ratios above that are not.
My suggestion: Try working on aeorbic endurance to aerobic power more, especially fast continuous runs (tempos) and long reps (1k to 2k) at 3k to 10k pace. Do not hesitate to keep doing shorter reps at a quick speed, but use plenty of recovery. I recommend 60m dashes to maintain the high speed you developed already. Coach T.