Monaco 800m

Why do you bother to read my threads or comments if I talk such nonsense?

I choose not to post on your threads, as I have nothing to comment on your views, so why don't you do yourself a favour and not comment on the nonsense you claim I write. You go out of your way to find my comments and respond to them. Why?

I don't mind discussion or people offering different opinions, but I have no wish to enter into conversation with rude people.

Awesome, two people making up fake times and then arguing about whose fake time is better....

hint...running with the pacer, pacing yourself correctly, getting in good position or going wide to get around people....these are all part of the sport of track and field.

What you two fail to understand about the 800m is that it's faster to run a little wide in a spirited race than run behind a pacemaker hugging the curb in a timetrial. Man-on-man battles, especially in the 800m, inspire the runners to run faster, despite the extra few yards from running wide.

My lifetime bests at 800m, 1500m, and mile were all set in heated competition, requiring running out of lane one. The same is true for most middle distance runners.

If you've never raced an 800m, you wouldn't know what makes a fast race. It's the competition that makes the race fast, not running on the curb the entire way.

Objectively he ran the time given by the time keepers. Subjectively he ran whatever you believe he could have run given your opinion. You also need to learn the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic.

Now, who where you saying only had one neuron and is a morn?

Word Smyth wrote:Objectively he ran the time given by the time keepers

yes

that is 1 objectivity

Subjectively he ran whatever you believe he could have run given your opinion

not quite

it is quite "objective" he ran ~ 8.5m extra if laser tracking was applied to his trajectory

it's "subjective" because it is never mentioned on inept iaaf/meet reports

it'd be nice if "guru" of gault / "stats-guru" at alma-mater, offer some-such

You also need to learn the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic

apologies

i will try harder

Now, who where you saying only had one neuron and is a morn?

many more apologies

I was able to get a bit of background information on Amel Tuka from a news source (in Finland). Main points:

- training seriously since 2009

- new coach, Gianni Ghidini (coached Wilfred Bungei, Yusuf Kamel, William Yiampoy), since last year

- lives and trains at 2000m altitude in Italy

- claims to have not done weight training before this season

- does more sprints and distance than before

So basically he has run 1:46 off of what sounds like "amateur" training, which puts the improvement into context. As for speed he has a 47.19 from 2013 and 47.52 from 2012, so he should be slightly faster now.

800fan wrote:

I was able to get a bit of background information on Amel Tuka from a news source (in Finland). Main points:

- training seriously since 2009

- new coach, Gianni Ghidini (coached Wilfred Bungei, Yusuf Kamel, William Yiampoy), since last year

- lives and trains at 2000m altitude in Italy

- claims to have not done weight training before this season

- does more sprints and distance than before

So basically he has run 1:46 off of what sounds like "amateur" training, which puts the improvement into context. As for speed he has a 47.19 from 2013 and 47.52 from 2012, so he should be slightly faster now.

The Jeter line.

800fan wrote:

I was able to get a bit of background information on Amel Tuka from a news source (in Finland). Main points:

- training seriously since 2009

- new coach, Gianni Ghidini (coached Wilfred Bungei, Yusuf Kamel, William Yiampoy), since last year

- lives and trains at 2000m altitude in Italy

- claims to have not done weight training before this season

- does more sprints and distance than before

So basically he has run 1:46 off of what sounds like "amateur" training, which puts the improvement into context. As for speed he has a 47.19 from 2013 and 47.52 from 2012, so he should be slightly faster now.

Interesting insights. Thanks. The only question I'd have is, what do "training seriously" and "amateur training" actually mean? You say he has been training seriously since 2009, but then add that he got to 1:46 (that's in 2013, after 4 seasons of 'serious training') off amateur training. That doesn't make sense.

By 2011, after 2 years of serious training, he only managed to get down to 1:51 at the age of 20. 4 years later he is 9 secs faster!

I will be interested to see if he can go on and run another 1:42 this year on a different track. Bosse did something similar a couple of years back, again at Monaco, and has done nothing close to that performance since.

Deanouk wrote:

Interesting insights. Thanks. The only question I'd have is, what do "training seriously" and "amateur training" actually mean? You say he has been training seriously since 2009, but then add that he got to 1:46 (that's in 2013, after 4 seasons of 'serious training') off amateur training. That doesn't make sense.

By 2011, after 2 years of serious training, he only managed to get down to 1:51 at the age of 20. 4 years later he is 9 secs faster!

I will be interested to see if he can go on and run another 1:42 this year on a different track. Bosse did something similar a couple of years back, again at Monaco, and has done nothing close to that performance since.

I meant "training seriously" as in concentrating on running as a sport. This was a loose translation of what was my recollection of the news article. Now that I checked again, what was said in fact was (my translation): "I began athletics in 2009, which was quite late. I have developed a lot in these six years."

From another section: "20 months ago I began a new training programme, and I have done a lot more distance and speed training than before, gone to the gym and done hill repeats. I had never gone to the gym before."

So it seems he had several areas in his training that he could improve considerably, not what you would expect of someone who is 23 and already down to 1:46, that's why I playfully called it amateur training. Not the best choice of words, but I hope you understand what I mean now.

Looking at Tuka's progression he had the speed to be a 1:43 man before this year, but possibly the endurance capacity was not there, and never could be. Now we know better. Off course the improvement is huge and raises suspicions, which is why I did some research. In the 2013 Euro U23 championships he ran 1:46.29 in third, with Bosse winning. Apparently some time after this he began working with Ghidini, because they met at the championships according to the news article. (This also fits the 20 months training quoted above.) So the new training may have had some effect by last year, but there was no immediate improvement as he ran 1:46.12 last year. This does make sense, because good training takes time to work. An immediate effect would be even more suspicious than a delayed breakthrough.

Incidentally, Bosse ran 1:42.53 in Monaco last year, but his second fastest time was only 1:44.23. Tuka came to Monaco with a 1:43.84 under his belt.

Thanks for clearing that up and giving a bit more detail.

800fan wrote:

Incidentally, Bosse ran 1:42.53 in Monaco last year, but his second fastest time was only 1:44.23. Tuka came to Monaco with a 1:43.84 under his belt.

Yes, that's what I mean. There's a huge difference between 1:42.53 and 1:44.23. I think the Monaco track is exceptionally fast. Bosse hasn't given me the impression of being a 1:42 runner since Monaco, and I'm not aware of any injury issues. I am looking to see if Tuka can repeat that sort of form the rest of the season.

Cheers.

No, Bosse had run sub 1:44 before. He was 22 last year when he ran the 1:42.53. So, he broke 1:44 at 21.

PERFORMANCE PLACE DATE

2015 1:43.88 New York (Icahn), NY 13 JUN

2014 1:42.53 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 18 JUL

2013 1:43.76 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 19 JUL

2012 1:44.97 Villeneuve-d'Ascq 09 JUN

2011 1:46.18 Reims 05 JUL

2010 1:48.38 Moncton 24 JUL

What the calculations on Souleiman are missing is that while he was indeed running extra distance and quite a bit of it, he would not have been running faster on the inside, because he was just trying to stay in a certain position until the final sprint. In that sprint, he arguably would have had a bit more in him without having run that extra distance but not that much. The body doesn't much know the difference between 800m and 810m. It does, however, show that had he been willing, he had it in him to go faster. But you cannot say that he tactically had any intention of going faster until the kick. If he had, he would have moved up in the third 200m when the pace lagged. Now, if he did go 1:41 mid pace the whole way, the others would have sat on him, he might have lost some drafting advantage and he might have faltered, as he did when he tried to go with the pacers at Oslo this year:

572 3:52.69 Ayanleh Souleiman DJI 03.12.92 4 Oslo 11.06.2015

I also haven't seen any mention of the fact that Tuka (fingers crossed on the obvious question) went from lane 1 to lane 4 in the last straightaway, and still ate up ground on a 1:41 guy with ease.

jjjjjj wrote:

No, Bosse had run sub 1:44 before. He was 22 last year when he ran the 1:42.53. So, he broke 1:44 at 21.

Yes, Bosse was under 1:44 before Monaco last year, but in 2014 his second fastest time was only 1:44.23. Bosse was quite consistent in 2013 (top 3 of 1:43.76, 1:43.91, 1:44.11) compared to 2014 (top 3 of 1:42.53, 1:44.23, 1:44.44).

Usually the fastest 800m are run with a difference of at least 1s between laps. With this in mind Tuka's laps for Monaco were too even for an optimal maximum effort, so that's argument enough that he can run faster. I'm a believer in the idea that a fast race is more important for times than absolute minumum distance, but for example running in lane 3 for the whole bend is not good, obviously.

The idea that the entire human race would run their best 800m time with the first lap 2 sec faster than the 2nd is nonsense. Yes, that is what the elite are told to do and many do run their best times with a faster first lap than 2nd, but some will equally benefit from a differential if 1 sec and some, generally 1500m based 800 guys, run optimum times off even splits. There is no evidence whatsoever that Tuka would have been a second faster had he run the first lap 1 sec faster.

There are many examples of athletes who chose to run even laps, as they knew that suited them best. E.g. Cram, Borzokovsky.

Deanouk wrote:

The idea that the entire human race would run their best 800m time with the first lap 2 sec faster than the 2nd is nonsense. Yes, that is what the elite are told to do and many do run their best times with a faster first lap than 2nd, but some will equally benefit from a differential if 1 sec and some, generally 1500m based 800 guys, run optimum times off even splits. There is no evidence whatsoever that Tuka would have been a second faster had he run the first lap 1 sec faster.

There are many examples of athletes who chose to run even laps, as they knew that suited them best. E.g. Cram, Borzokovsky.

The 800m's heart of mystery lies in the extreme difficulty of running the second lap fast, whatever the preceding pace. When someone endeavours to run 1:42 or faster even pacing becomes a very serious obstacle.

Borzakovsky - 1:42.47 (50.8/51.6)

Cram - 1:42.88 (51.2/51.6)

Cram - 1:43.19 (51.6/51.6)

Cram - 1:43.22 (51.7/51.5)

Tuka - 1:42.51 (51.1/51.4)

ventolin^3 wrote:

yes

not quite

it'd be nice

apologies

i will try harder

many more apologies

Did someone hack ventolin's account?

to those saying the calculated ideal times are inaccurate, you have to realize that there are a lot of assumptions being made. the major assumption is that the other people in the race get out of the way, or stay just far enough ahead for perfect drafting while going the perfect speed.

you gotta look at it with that perspective. it's not complete crap math, but it's not very realistic either.

It's the 2nd race on this link

Just watched Tuka's 45.1 anchor leg on this relay. Think his 47.19 PB is well under threat if he runs one this year.

JRinaldi wrote:

http://youtu.be/6ItcoTxz1AI

It's the 2nd race on this link

Just watched Tuka's 45.1 anchor leg on this relay. Think his 47.19 PB is well under threat if he runs one this year.

Cheers for that link.

WOW! That was an incredible leg by Tuka. I made it 45.0/45.1, going through 300m in 33.1!

I hope he's legit, because his progression has been startling the last 2 seasons.

Based on that and his Monaco run, I'm going to stick my neck out and say he'll win at Worlds.