800m speed training for MASTERS types

A sub 2:10 on 25 miles a week? How fast can you run in your workouts this year?

Miles+Speed=? wrote:

A sub 2:10 on 25 miles a week? How fast can you run in your workouts this year?

i think thats just what he did prior to this. Masters runners usually need to lean towards the volume end of things. if I were you Id put a lot of volume in, but 6 or 8 strides after each run. Stick to 1-2 workouts a week, gradually increasing the intensity.

Workouts from "Better Training For Distance Runners" by Martin and Coe worked well for me. Stuff like 6 x 1000 at 5k pace, 8 x 300 at 800 pace, 16 x 200 at 1500 pace. I agree about not being able to do 3 hard workouts a week anymore when you get older.

I ran 2:12 last year at 48 years old. This came the summer after a spring marathon. I had been running up to 82 mpw for 18 weeks, then shifted attention to the 800 with a pretty good endurance base. For about ten weeks, I did about 50 mpw, including two track workouts each week, one run of 10-14 miles and one 22-44 minute tempo run. I tended to do one of the track workout with 200-600 m intervals, fast (well, what is fast for me now) with 4 minute recoveries, and one workout with longer 800-1600 m intervals with 90-120 sec recoveries. I did some hill sprints too.

Ten weeks was really too short a time to know what I could do. I only had time for three races, so I might have done better latter in the summer. I also ran a stupid race: 62/70 splits. I love the 800; I'm going to do it again this summer and try to learn to race better. Like you, I also would like to break 2:10.

Your workouts seem reasonable but not so ambitious. You might want to increase the number of repetitions (3 x 600 sounds too few) and your mileage and do one long run each week. I used Daniel's Running Formula and Lawrence and Scheid's "Self Coached Runner II" for workout ideas.

If you haven't worn spikes for awhile..don't. Do your workouts in flats, and very gradually reintroduce yourself to spikes. I wear them in races and in for a few short intervals.

Good luck!

Thanks everyone for their input so far.

Several people have said to increase mileage.

I know I sound cautious especially on the mileage front at 25mpw. But, I'd rather be careful than sorry. That's why I wanted to start with the 800 this year and then slowly build for next year running longer races.

Even "way back in the day" I was never much of a super high mileage type. But I did have 49. 400m speed (yeah, that's slow for Letsrun but it was fast enough for what I wanted to do). I never seriously raced 800 but my mile PR was 4:13, so I figure at about twice the age, I ought to still be able to run that pace for roughly half the distance (kind of twisted logic, I know).

I am also doing about 3 hours of fairly hard biking a week and weights too. I really think the biking helps add the equivalent of about 20 miles extra per week for general aerobic fitness, because my morning pulse is around low-mid 40's--about the same as my youth.

In response to one of the first posters: This week was my first week on the track doing "workouts". I did do a 400m time trial about a month ago just to see if I could break 60 (nope--it was 62.3--I'm hoping that will go down a lot by the summer). For my workouts, I only time my rest intervals now to make sure they are consistent, later I'll time the work portion. I just don't want to get super competitive with myself at first and start racing in workouts (because I had that tendency in the past). I'm going by what I hope is appropriate feel.

In response to sansdisk, I haven't worn spikes for over 25 years. So, yes I'll gradually bring them in. I'm using some Saucony racing flats. Also, the 3 x 600m closer to summer time would be done quite hard. Not all out but close. Perhaps 800m race pace? Do you think it's safe to actually do more at that effort at my age and be recovered for something on the track 2-3 days later?

I have Coe/Martin but the workouts seem insane for me now and even in my youth....I like how Coe did something like 30x hill sprints the day before a race. I haven't read the book by Lawrence and Scheid...I'll have to check into it.

Just to clarify: When I time my rest interval, I also make sure the pulse is back under 120. There was no drop off in recovery time such that it took longer than 2 minutes after each rep to go back under 120. That's basically something my fairly "old school" coach taught me in order to keep under control and not go too fast in the work portion of intervals. I learn to feel what an appropriate effort should be for a workout that allows me to recover each interval without completely going under.

When I do reps with full recovery that will be a different story.

older not wiser wrote:Also, the 3 x 600m closer to summer time would be done quite hard. Not all out but close. Perhaps 800m race pace?

I ran at a top level 800 program around your era.

Repeat 600m was a staple of our training, but it was 2x600m at race pace with full recovery. We may have thrown a couple of 200m on after that I can't really remember. We were always so spent after the 2x600's that it's all a blur.

My vote is for fewer rather than more, good luck.

Hi

at age 32 i ran the 2:05, easily -> was ok for me at 25-30 mpw.

then 4 years of endurance works at 40-60 mpw.

since i am a former fast middle distance type, i never got really good results (10 km: 34:30 min).

now i have difficulties to come back to faster stuff.

hard to do a very fast 200m in 30 sec :=(

currently, i am trying to get back lost strength by doing tons of 100m stridings and 100-200m intervals+hills (strength endurance). it takes me one year to prepare myself for "serious" master 800m track training. i am sad about this.

i want to do something like this:

off

10-15X100 m stridings & easy run 45 min

easy run 60-65 min

5-10x200 m

off

8-10x1:30 hill intervals or 3x600 m on track with full recov.

easy run 70-90 min

this is enough for my at age 36 and my demanding profession.

kind regards

Looks good.

Maybe replace some of your quality with a 20-30 minute hard run.

Running uphill is a reduced impact way of getting in the tempo run.So find a not too steep hill that climbs for 20-30 minutes and run up it.Walk back down.

Two other interesting books:

http://www.feetnessforlife.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Run-Best-Tony-Benson/dp/0911521534

Sans has the best advice for Masters Middle Distance Runners if you ask me. That is to focus on only two workouts per week on the track, a well rounded overall mileage week - max 60 avg 50-55, including one LSD run. Mix your speed sessions up to simulate and train the body to prepare for the grueling 800m race - full of tactics and split-second decision making on that 2nd lap. I've been well coached for 7 Masters years and have hovered around 1:58-2:00 thru age 47. Cant stress enough about strength work up until about 4-6 weeks to peak when it's time to shift to top speed sessions. anything earlier means you will not last to your end of season goal race. Spread your two track sessions tightly to train the body to run the rounds if you're going to Nationals. one maximum two days in-between tthe two track sessions. Good luck. Hope to see you in Spokane.

KP

If , you can run under 1:33 in the 600 this year?

My youthful times were very similar to yours (49/1:52), though I never raced the mile. Your innate speed is very good and if you are basically fit and kept weight off over the years, you are going to do well. But be patient. Your idea of using this year to build for a more serious next year makes good sense.

I think your conservative approach viz mileage is fine if you are just getting back to serious running. Still, I'd aim to work up to 40 mpw. Your more serious risk of injury is not from that sort of mileage (which is really not so much), but from the track work itself. I would suggest that you treat the first 10-18 weeks as base conditioning for more intense work afterwards. I think it would be a mistake to do those race pace 600s until then. If you haven't been doing fast running for the last 25 years, your muscles and tendons are going to be very surprised if you suddenly do so.

I'm with KP in stressing the development of strength and endurance before speed. The fact that you couldn't break 60 in your time trial shows your current lack of endurance, because you DO have the speed. While you are building endurance and doing slower, longer intervals, you will be conditioning your legs for the faster track work to come. Along those lines, if you haven't already, I'd suggest that you to start now exercises to strengthen and stretch your calf muscles. Be careful of your hamstrings too as you start those 100-200s.

BTW, since we were mentioning books and Martin and Coe's "Better training..." book came up, I'll mention another of Peter Coe's "Winning Running: Successful 800m and 1500m racing and training." It's interesting to read but is written for one athlete: Sebastian Coe. It's hard to see what a typical college runner, let alone a masters runner, can take from it (other than awe of Sebastian Coe). My favorite part is where he says once you do under 47 in the 400, you are ready for the competitive season.

KP is the man to beat. It won't be me who does it, but hope to see you in Spokane. Anyhow, I'll be 50 soon. Cheers

I do not agree.

Last years i learned my lesson. this year i am preparing myself for serious track work with:

- easy aerobic running

- easy speed work

- strength endurance (hills or intervalls: 100...250 m with 1,5...2 min jogging)

if i am doing longer intervals (aerobic capacity) first!, then my muscles get sore. this inhibits speed work and strength endurance. lack on speed and strength endurance makes me to run the 400 m slowly. if 400m at 800m race pace is easy for me, then i am doing tempo runs (20-40 min, but carefully, those can be easily overdone) and stuff like 5x400 (4...8 min rest), 3x600 (8 min rest) while maintaining speed work. in this period, i am doing only 2 serious workouts (+1xspeed, +easy runs).

kind regards

Hi

I thought I’d contribute a few ideas to this.

As a bit of background, I’ve been coaching Bob Minting for about 10 years now. At the World Masters Championships in 2005 Bob won the vet 55 800m and was 3rd in 2007 (obviously two years older). You can get a full look at his race history here:

http://www.athleticsdata.com/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=1110

Bob was already a very good athlete when he joined up with my group and he controls most of his own training. I tend to think of my contribution as providing a weekly key track session and giving feedback on that session. I write six week programmes which are basically ideas for what Bob could do outside of our once-weekly track session.

I coach a mixed ability middle distance group which typically ranges from young teenagers to senior veterans. At the moment the youngest is 17 and the oldest is 60. Over the years Bob has usually had someone in front of him setting the pace, as there has been runners in the group operating at below 2 minutes for 800m. For a short period last year Bob was the fastest in the group and had to judge the pace. At the moment there are two runners faster than him.

Bob’s weekly mileage is below 30 miles – though if you look through his races you’ll find a couple of 5 milers and the occasional 10km. The weekly track session varies according to the time of year. I tend to look at what we were doing exactly 12 months ago and see if it fits in with what we should be doing now. Over the course of each year I’ll repeat sessions to see how progress is going. Every now and then I’ll throw in a new session.

Last week was our final week of endurance/speed endurance training and the Tuesday session was 200 x 16 with the reps starting every 2 minutes (if you run 30s for a rep you get 90s recovery), with walk 100m between reps, gradually moving round the track. Average rep time is about 800m race pace throughout. Next week we begin moving into slightly faster stuff with 200/300/400/500 (10 mins) 500/400/300/200 with 2m30s recovery.

Some of our track sessions are really going for it – pushing the performance and average to max. Others we are looking more at pace judgement and rhythm. We don’t want to leave the best performances on the training track.

Quite a lot of our weekly sessions end up with a faster last rep – seeing what is left in the tank. I think it helps at the end of an 800m race.

A few general points, particularly for the original poster:

You have to think long-term (years) and be very patient.

Staying injury free is obviously a big concern. You can help this by including things like yoga and massage. As a coach, you can also help by giving feedback to help develop a more efficient style.

On any debate like this you’ll get a discussion of mileage versus speed. The answer I would give on that is often stated – every athlete is different, or as Peter Coe said “an experiment of one”. Find what works for you (over a period of years) and stick with it.

If asked for my favourite track event, it would have to be the 800m. An interesting mix of speed. speed endurance, tactics, positioning, rhythm, confidence and the tolerance of pain. Magic !

Eddie

Great stuff Coach Eddie. I particularly like your comment to be patient across years. I recall when I turned 40 how confident I was just because of my age in a new group. False expectations. For it wasn't until age 43 that I broke two minutes. Takes a few years to calibrate the body from road races, or whatever, to the fine art of the 800. "Magic" as you say.

Two ways to come at the 800. 100, 200, 300, 400's on low mileage and hope for the best. Usually not very good for a long(er) peak season or to get through rounds where each race is faster & faster. Or from the strength/overdistance angle (my training) which is 60+ miles during the Fall/Winter/Spring with longer intervals (kilo+), 5k and 10k races, and plyometrics and wt training mixed in.

I am a big believer in if you are using your speed for the first 600m of an 800, and I am using my strength to get that point, I might have an advantage when the real racing (finishing pretty) takes place.

Staying injury free is the real trick though!

Best,

tony (46)

I was 30 pounds over my racing weight when I turned 40. I thought I could drop it like the old days. It took me 6 months to do it. I decided I wanted to run a fast mile again but it took me till I was 43 to get there. Along the way I did some 800's and got down to 2:04 not blazing but satisfactory to me. Anyway, hills, hills, and more. It took the boredom out of track intervals. I did only 1 interval session a week on the track usually 8-10 400's at 62-62 with a 2 minute walk jog between or 200's in 40 with a 20 second rest. And whoever said spikes, incorporte them. I know you're 47 and that is how long I ran decently before hanging em up.

There seems to be broad consensus. The disagreements seem to be about the need for, or length of, a period of aerobic conditioning before beginning fast track workouts. As far as I can tell, no one has argued that fast track workouts are not needed.

There is agreement that injury prevention has a high priority.

There is disagreement about the relative emphasis on threshold, interval, and faster repetitions, but this may reflect the type of runner. Compared to pure sprint or pure distance events, 800 and 1500 runners may be the most heterogeneous. So what works for the speed-oriented runner moving up may not work as well for the endurance-oriented runner moving down. Whether you train to your weakness or strength is another debate.

If the argument is between 30 and 40 mpw, the difference is small and hardly worth arguing about.

Everyone has different goals. For me, the 800 is my best distance, but there is so little opportunity to race and so few runners who would want to train for it, that I mostly race 5K to marathon and train with distance runners. I train for middle distance in the spring and summer, but don't want to give up my year-round base of 40-60 mpw as I move toward longer races in the fall and winter where I might go as high as 75-80 mpw in marathon training. This mileage is not stressful for me, and I am largely injury free. That might not work for everyone.

(By the way, I find racing these longer distances to be satisfying because I do not have youthful times to compare myself to. Having started racing these distances in the past four years, I continue to set PRs from 5K-marathon, while my 800 time looks pathetic compared to high school and college.)

Last, for the original post, there is more than one way to approach it, and it is interesting to see what others are doing. So choose what works best for you and good luck to all.

Sansdisk, how fast can you run the 800 this year?