Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread

Kyp Lyttyn wrote:

I went through the first 100 pages of 150 lost and found pictures, but wasn't able to pick Kip out of the line up there.

I went through all of the lost and found section and found zip of Kip.

The cookies issue popped up a few times, on a few pages only, and I just kept going to a different page and back again until it worked. It appeared to be random yesterday.

Kevin52 wrote:

Kyp Lyttyn wrote:

I went through the first 100 pages of 150 lost and found pictures, but wasn't able to pick Kip out of the line up there.

I went through all of the lost and found section and found zip of Kip.

The cookies issue popped up a few times, on a few pages only, and I just kept going to a different page and back again until it worked. It appeared to be random yesterday.

Did the same thing this morning.

Keith Stone wrote:

The reporter has very little say in what stories go in the paper. That decision is up to the editorial board. The reporter can pitch a story, but the whole "cheating at road races" angle probably doesn't rise to high in your normal editorial board's interest level particularly if they don't think the general public will understand it. The original story was your typical feel-good special interest story. The rebuttal means trying to explain splits and clothing changes to people that quite frankly don't give a rip. It could come down to something as simple as the editor not wanting to pay the guy to research and write the story. If it could be proven he actually defrauded a charity or did something that rises to a wider interest I'm sure it would come back on the radar, but the race cheating angle isn't really a hot topic in your average mid-market newspaper.[/quote]

This sums up, nicely, why BKhan didn't immediately seek to set matters right regarding Dr Litton.

You guys really need to get a life.

The Saint wrote:

You guys really need to get a life.

Bag it kiddie.

Obviously you've never been Kipped.

This is the type of supportive info which underlines the questionability of results with long start delays, together with photos such as those from Deadwood and videos such as those from Rochester.

I've completed looking at the rest of what I thought would show up with long start delays and report that in detail below. Used SoKLR's format to make it easier for him to upload to his site. Generally linked full results as this makes it possible to compare start delays to similar finishers.

Date Event Gun Time Chip Time Difference Overall Place Key Suspicions

8/23/08 Crim 10M (MI) 1:09:59 1:06:18 0:03:41 190/7260 Long start delay followed by 31:29 first 5 miles in a crowded field over hardest section of course

8/25/07 Crim 10M (MI) 1:09:40 1:06:23 0:03:17 241/7270 Long start delay followed by 32:24 first 5 miles in a crowded field over hardest section of course

12/14/08 Dallas White Rock Half Mar. 1:30:59 1:24:58 0:06:01 45/5788 Long start delay; no 10 mile split (only man in top 200 without the split, only 10 other men out of 2406 missing this split)

6/1/08 Dexter-Ann Arbor Half Mar. (MI) 1:27:29 1:25:38 0:01:51 49/2354 Long start delay

(Continued in next post)

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Date Event Gun Time Chip Time Difference Overall Place Key Suspicions

5/24/08 Bayshore Marathon (MI) 2:57:07 2:55:10 0:01:57 26/1263 Long start delay; 1:23:27/1:31:42 splits -- 1st half faster than questionable PR at the time of 1:23:48 (Naples, FL)

http://results.active.com/pages/searchform.jsp?posted_p=t&numPerPage=50&rsID=64898&eventClass=Marathon&queryType=division&pubID=3

6/3/07 Dexter-Ann Arbor Half Mar.

(MI) 1:26:40 1:25:14 0:01:26 42/2052 Long start delay; 1st in age group by 3+ min.

http://results.active.com/pages/displayNonGru.jsp?pubID=3&rsID=45057

5/26/07 Bayshore Marathon (MI) 2:56:35 2:55:20 0:01:15 22/1294 Long start delay

http://results.active.com/pages/searchform.jsp?posted_p=t&numPerPage=25&page=1&rsID=45345&sex=M&queryType=division&pubID=3#VIEW

Note: I didn't look at Boston between 2007 - 2009, except for finding a 1:26 start delay in 2007, which is a reasonable delay.

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Before 2006, results do not show long start delays. Contrast these performances with much shorter ~15 sec start times to those after 2006 with 1-6 min start times. These thus appear legit and reflective of his capabilities at that time.

Date Event Gun Time Chip Time Difference Overall Place Comments

10/23/05 Detroit Free Press Half Mar. (MI) 1:31:38 1:31:23 0:00:15 81/4072

http://results.active.com/pages/oneResult.jsp?pID=12072891&rsID=10711&pubID=3

8/27/05 Crim 10M (MI) 1:10:37 1:10:26 0:00:13 450/6714

35:12 first 5 miles

http://results.active.com/pages/oneResult.jsp?pID=12098586&rsID=4537&pubID=3

11/13/04 Richmond Mar. 3:08:28 3:08:14 0:00:14 156/3224

http://results.active.com/pages/oneResult.jsp?pID=12148023&rsID=10780&pubID=3

This clearly establishes a change in racing strategy starting in 2006. Additional photos and anecdotes for the first set of races will help add to what is already an overwhelming amount of data (as excellently documented by SoKLR at his website).

Wow, nice work race detective. Good information.

Some notes here:

good times' Crim account is pretty accurate if you start mid pack or worse. It is nuts and flat dangerous as people go wide to pass, jumping over curbs, fire hydrants etc. I did it once - never again. It only takes a 10k run in under 7:00 pace to qualify for the corral just behind the elites. But you have to register a few weeks ahead of time.

I think good times was trying to say that you break free just in time for the Bradley hills which start at mile 5. Thus the second half is the harder half.

Dexter to Ann Arbor is point to point and starts on a narrow two lane road. If you're fast you don't want to start in the back... Unless you want a good trial run for Kipping Boston. Just a thought.

Race detective wrote:

(continued from previous post)

Date Event Gun Time Chip Time Difference Overall Place Key Suspicions

6/3/07 Dexter-Ann Arbor Half Mar.

(MI) 1:26:40 1:25:14 0:01:26 42/2052 Long start delay; 1st in age group by 3+ min.

http://results.active.com/pages/displayNonGru.jsp?pubID=3&rsID=45057

(Continued in next post)

I ran Dexter to Ann Arbor in 2007. I didn't race it, just ran it as a medium long run after running a 10k PR the day prior. Kip would've had to pass me but it's not like I would've cared or remembered that. I do remember it rained and the start was delayed ~20-30 min due to a tree falling down on the course.

Rick Armes (2nd place 45-49 AG) is from my area but I don't know him well.

Here is our boy:

'Here is our boy:'

Lack of a visible number duly noted!

Rich Rodriquez's first race?

http://www.runmichigan.com/results/full.php/2008/09/13/y-back-to-school.html

No pictures for this one I don't think. Does anybody know Joe Gonzales from Birmingham, who finished right behind Kip?

Gotta love this, the race was won by Alene Reta, with Kip taking the 45-49 AG. Looks like we've got all the angles covered.

Kevin52 wrote:

[

Here is our boy:

http://www.runmichigan.com/photogallery/07/dexterannarbor060307_window.php?413http://www.runmichigan.com/photogallery/07/dexterannarbor060307.php?360http://results.active.com/pages/displayNonGru.jsp?pubID=3&rsID=45057

Race detective wrote:

This is the type of supportive info which underlines the questionability of results with long start delays, together with photos such as those from Deadwood and videos such as those from Rochester.

I've completed looking at the rest of what I thought would show up with long start delays and report that in detail below. Used SoKLR's format to make it easier for him to upload to his site. Generally linked full results as this makes it possible to compare start delays to similar finishers.

Date Event Gun Time Chip Time Difference Overall Place Key Suspicions

6/1/08 Dexter-Ann Arbor Half Mar. (MI) 1:27:29 1:25:38 0:01:51 49/2354 Long start delay

http://results.active.com/pages/searchform.jsp?posted_p=t&numPerPage=50&page=1&rsID=64179&queryType=division&pubID=3#VIEW

(Continued in next post)

1408 Mark Shehan Ypsilanti MI Male 40-44 41 M 1:26:36 1:26:38 63 54 11 233 138 6:37

1357 Josh Sanchez Ann Arbor MI Male 30-34 30 M 1:26:23 1:26:41 60 51 10 188 138 6:36

224 Bent Andersen Ypsilanti MI Male 45-49 45 M 1:26:50 1:26:53 66 57 10 193 138 6:38

1960 Eric Loveland Dundee MI Male 18-19 18 M 1:26:49 1:26:57 64 55 2 17 138 6:38

2070 Thomas Piazza Troy MI Male 45-49 49 M 1:26:49 1:26:57 65 56 9 193 138 6:38

2117 Mark Schrage Ann Arbor MI Male 40-44 44 M 1:27:02 1:27:07 68 59 12 233 138 6:39

613 Kristofer Forsyth Canton MI Male 30-34 32 M 1:26:54 1:27:18 67 58 11 188 138 6:38

648 David Gerdes Ann Arbor MI Male 40-44 44 M 1:27:18 1:27:23 69 60 13 233 138 6:40

2535 Kip Litton Davison MI Male 45-49 46 M 1:25:38 1:27:29 49 40 5 193 138 6:33

656 Jeff Girbach Novi MI Male 15-17 16 M 1:27:38 1:27:38 71 62 2 27 138 6:42

1786 Robert Cook Holt MI Male 45-49 46 M 1:27:44 1:27:47 73 64 11 193 138 6:42

1773 Renzo Cavalieri Ann Arbor MI Male 30-34 31 M 1:27:27 1:27:54 70 61 12 188 138 6:41

2254 Michael Bolt Grand Rapids MI Male 35-39 36 M 1:27:49 1:27:56 74 65 6 206 138 6:43

2002 Tom Miller West Bloomfield MI Male 50-54 53 M 1:27:41 1:28:04 72 63 2 127 138 6:42

391 Michael Castle Vincennes VDM Male 40-44 44 M 1:28:07 1:28:08 76 67 15 233 138 6:44

2590 Dan Hurley Ann Arbor MI Male 40-44 42 M 1:28:02 1:28:20 75 66 14 233 138 6:44

2579 Craig North Ann Arbor MI Male 50-54 52 M 1:28:18 1:28:24 77 68 3 127 138 6:45

9 Roberta Meyer Shepherdsville KY Female 40-44 44 F 1:28:27 1:28:27 78 10 2 137 966 6:46

2408 John Edward Scott Dearborn MI Male 55-59 57 M 1:28:29 1:28:33 79 69 4 84 138 6:46

61 Charles Evans Ann Arbor MI Male 25-29 27 M 1:28:31 1:28:35 80 70 9 156 138 6:46

1210 Joseph Palumbo Baltimore MD Male 35-39 39 M 1:28:36 1:28:43 81 71 7 206 138 6:46

1078 Michael McNally Canton MI Male 40-44 40 M 1:28:58 1:29:09 83 73 16 233 138 6:48

1549 Adam Unsworth Ann Arbor MI Male 35-39 39 M 1:29:12 1:29:16 85 75 8 206 138 6:49

1437 Daniel Snyder Farmington Hills MI Male 30-34 30 M 1:29:08 1:29:23 84 74 13 188 138 6:49

2357 Pat Miller Ii Howell MI Male 45-49 46 M 1:29:21 1:29:29 86 76 13 193 138 6:50

4 Ana Gjesdal Dexter MI Female 25-29 25 F 1:29:34 1:29:35 90 11 5 182 966 6:51

2522 Adam Deedler Ann Arbor MI Male 30-34 33 M 1:29:29 1:29:38 89 79 14 188 138 6:50

2383 Ryan Pletzke Northville MI Male 25-29 25 M 1:29:39 1:29:39 95 84 12 156 138 6:51

55 Chris Dettore Ann Arbor MI Male 25-29 29 M 1:29:36 1:29:42 92 81 11 156 138 6:51

1516 David Thomas Columbus OH Male 30-34 33 M 1:29:35 1:29:45 91 80 15 188 138 6:51

982 Paul Lipinski Canton MI Male 40-44 43 M 1:29:36 1:29:47 93 82 18 233 138 6:51

2043 Thomas Novitsky Northville MI Male 40-44 40 M 1:29:24 1:29:48 87 77 17 233 138 6:50

2238 Kinfu Adisu Grand Rapids MI Male 45-49 49 M 1:29:48 1:29:52 98 87 15 193 138 6:52

1123 Timothy Mooney Toledo OH Male 45-49 48 M 1:29:45 1:29:55 97 86 14 193 138 6:52

463 David Crary Ann Arbor MI Male 55-59 57 M 1:29:54 1:29:58 101 89 5 84 138 6:52

173 Christopher Jones Ann Abor MI Male 25-29 27 M 1:29:51 1:30:00 99 88 13 156 138 6:52

164 Emily Damuth Ann Arbor MI Female 25-29 26 F 1:29:51 1:30:00 100 12 6 182 966 6:52

541 Matthew Duane Ypsilanti MI Male 25-29 26 M 1:29:29 1:30:01 88 78 10 156 138 6:50

1926 James Kelley Walker MI Male 45-49 46 M 1:28:57 1:30:05 82 72 12 193 138 6:48

2190 David Vanker Birmingham MI Male 55-59 57 M 1:30:13 1:30:15 105 93 6

Based on the above data, sorted by gun time, I would expect him to show up on one of these two pages:

But I don't see him on any page.

dukerdog wrote:

Rich Rodriquez's first race?

http://www.runmichigan.com/results/full.php/2008/09/13/y-back-to-school.html

No pictures for this one I don't think. Does anybody know Joe Gonzales from Birmingham, who finished right behind Kip?

Looks like he actually ran this one. A 20:28 5k with the same gun/chip time delay as the winner. His next 5k was a PR @ 18:27.

Dexter to Ann Arbor start photo:

http://champsforcharity.com/gallery/index.php/Dexter-Ann-Arbor-Run/Doug-Russell-s-2008-DxA2-Photos/doug_russell

It occurred to me today...for a guy who's purportedly running for charity it's odd how KL never wears any shirts or hats (and Lord knows how he loves his hats!) endorsing his charity or publicizing his cause. No outward sign at all that he's running for CF.

That Deadwood picture sequence has him dead to rites. As close to a smoking gun as you can get via pictures.

A couple of the local Detroit TV stations have very good and active investigative repoting teams. I've notified one of them, emphasizing the DQs and cheating, and particularly how he solicited donations directly through his website. Hopefully there is some follow-up by media on at least a local level.

Love to see the IRS involved, too.

I'm starting to wonder a little bit about the Detroit chapter of CF. They STILL feature KL and his "world record run" on their website...

June 27, 2009 Northville, Mi Solstice Run

http://www.runmichigan.com/results/full.php/2009/06/27/2009-solstice-run.html

MALE AGE GROUP 45 - 49

Place Oall No. Name Town Ag 10ktime Pace

===== ==== ===== ====================== ================= == ======= =====

1 9 812 Kip Litton Davison 47 37:14 6:00

per wunderground.com

7:53 AM Temp = 66.0 °F Dewpoint = 59.0 °F Humidity = 78%

Photo of kip near end. fresh as a daisy, no bib.

http://www.runmichigan.com/photogallery/09/solstice10k_062709me_window.php?31