junk master wrote:
As for ruining his life, would you let him fill a cavity? What about a root canal?
This is not necessary. You guys need to separate what he does for a living and whas his avocation is. They are not the same thing, not related.
junk master wrote:
As for ruining his life, would you let him fill a cavity? What about a root canal?
This is not necessary. You guys need to separate what he does for a living and whas his avocation is. They are not the same thing, not related.
Race detective wrote:
Kip is listed in 2:54:06 net time; the woman 'Study of KL Running' was asking about who appears in one of his photos finished in 2:55:17. About 1300 total runners in full and half marathon, so perhaps a minute start time if he started in the back as usual. Results here:
http://www.coolrunning.com/results/09/nh/Nov1_3rdAnn_set8.shtmlFinished as 4th masters - 1st 3 earned prize money, so he appears first in age 40-49 if you click on Age Group winners.
There are a lack of photos for KL compared to other runners, as usual. Only two photos of him here as previously linked:
http://www2.brightroom.com/browser.aspx?eid=47688&bib=195Two additional photos of him running next to the women's winner appear under her photos:
http://www2.brightroom.com/browser.aspx?eid=47688&bib=557(looks like the home stretch).
A few other nearby finishers show photos on what look like 6 or even 7 additional course locations: e.g.
http://www2.brightroom.com/browser.aspx?eid=47688&bib=128or
http://www2.brightroom.com/browser.aspx?eid=47688&bib=95An exception, however, is runner 586, who has only one photo (although his at least is mid-race).
If trying to pull 'something' out of the data, you could look at split times. Most runners in the top 50 have a positive 2nd half vs. 1st half split of almost 10 minutes. 4 have a split of 0 to +2 minutes. Kip is the only one in the top 50 with a negative split (-2:20): 1:28:13, 1:25:53.
GK and I ran Manchester in 2010, I believe it was the same course as 2009. We both don't remember all that much about it but the 2nd half was definitely a lot harder than the 1st half - it's hillier and has more twists and turns and headwind. It would be really tough to get a neg split.
At the halfway point you loop back really close to the start/finish where everyone parks. I *think* there were chip mats at more than just the start/half/finish. But his half split was 1:28 which he supposedly can do, so maybe he ran the first half and then went to his car, drove along the 2nd half looking for chip mats (it wasn't closed to traffic), and then came back to finish when he thought was appropriate.
Also there were a TON of photographers there, we had a ridiculous amount of pictures for a race of that size. It would be tough for him to slip past them all if he had actually run it.
Wrap up the investigation for the 2009 City of Trees Marathon - add another Disqualification to Kip's list.Here is most of the race director's reply (I removed a little, for public consumption):"We caught him doing the same thing, only we didn't have the time to check on his past. We just thought he cut course since he didn't get his picture taken with the pack at mile 10 or mile 22, but we dq'd him for awards, and left his time online so we could compare at a later date. THANK YOU SO MUCH for the info. I don't know why people do that..." "...my best friend and the guy who sets up the course is very aware of all the goings on with the top 5 runners as he usually finishes 2nd or 3rd. He told me upon the race finish, 'No way that guy ran the whole race, I never passed him, or saw him.'"
KipInAHaystack wrote:
City of Trees Marathon, Boise Idaho, 10/04/09
Summary: 2:55:45, 5th place overall, 1st or 2nd master (depends on whether 4th place Todd Arndt is age 38 or 40); website mentions awards for top 3 masters, but no specifics.
Athlinks Results:
http://www.athlinks.com/time.aspx?eventid=105232&courseid=139149Official Results:
http://www.bluecirclesports.com/Results_ShowEventResults.aspx?eid=546(click on “total time” to sort finishes by place)
Official Race Pics:
http://www.backprint.com/view_event.asp?PID=bp%18%7ED&EVENTID=58741&PWD=target_blankRace Course:
http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=397993Suspicion #1: Multi-loop course; apprears to offer several places to cut, no split times in results.
Suspicion #2: Places 1st thru 10th all have multiple race photos (usually about 8 photos) at multiple places (bridge, lighthouse, and finish). Kip has exactly 1 photo, and that is crossing the finish line. This is a small race (135 finishers), and if you look at the photos it’s obvious that someone would not be missed like that.
I have emailed the race director (generic "contact us" from the race website), alerting them to the concern and directing them to the blog and this thread.
I will post if I receive a response.
fred wrote:
"GREAT PERFORMANCES - ROAD RACING
================================
Reader Brian Smith passes along several great performances by Kip Litton:
"I wanted to relay some info about a couple of recent performances that I would consider great. I see a dentist in Davison who's name is Dr. Kip Litton. We often talk running when I am there. Recently he had told me about a couple of marathons he was planning to run. When I asked about them afterwards, he just said things like, "I was just glad to finish" and "Well, I didn't injure myself!". I know that he is a good runner, so I looked up the race results. Now I also know how humble he is.
"It turns out that he finished 3 marathons in less than 2 months, all under 3 hours. He placed 2nd overall & 1st master in The New Mexico Marathon Sept 6 in 2:57:54, 5th overall & 1st master in The City of Trees Marathon Oct 4 in 2:55:45 and 14th overall and 1st in the division in The Manchester City Marathon Nov 1 in 2:54:06.
"I think that could be considered worthy of a mention. I didn't see them listed in your newsletter so I thought I would pass them along."
Above was an email from an alleged patient of Dr Litton's to the Michigan Runner. Subsequent inquiry concluded it was Kip himself who submitted it - touting himself. It was sent in AFTER his DQ from the Detroit Marathon. It would've been his attempt to 'prove himself' in lieu of the DQ. Brian Smith did not write the note.
A little more info here would help: from whom was the "subsequent inquiry" and how was it proved that the submission was from KL?
Clarkston Kent wrote:
Above was an email from an alleged patient of Dr Litton's to the Michigan Runner. Subsequent inquiry concluded it was Kip himself who submitted it - touting himself. It was sent in AFTER his DQ from the Detroit Marathon. It would've been his attempt to 'prove himself' in lieu of the DQ. Brian Smith did not write the note.
So is that Kip posting this? aka FredWhat a loser.
Clarkston Kent wrote:
fred wrote:"GREAT PERFORMANCES - ROAD RACING
================================
Reader Brian Smith passes along several great performances by Kip Litton:
"I wanted to relay some info about a couple of recent performances that I would consider great. I see a dentist in Davison who's name is Dr. Kip Litton. We often talk running when I am there. Recently he had told me about a couple of marathons he was planning to run. When I asked about them afterwards, he just said things like, "I was just glad to finish" and "Well, I didn't injure myself!". I know that he is a good runner, so I looked up the race results. Now I also know how humble he is.
"It turns out that he finished 3 marathons in less than 2 months, all under 3 hours. He placed 2nd overall & 1st master in The New Mexico Marathon Sept 6 in 2:57:54, 5th overall & 1st master in The City of Trees Marathon Oct 4 in 2:55:45 and 14th overall and 1st in the division in The Manchester City Marathon Nov 1 in 2:54:06.
"I think that could be considered worthy of a mention. I didn't see them listed in your newsletter so I thought I would pass them along."
Above was an email from an alleged patient of Dr Litton's to the Michigan Runner. Subsequent inquiry concluded it was Kip himself who submitted it - touting himself. It was sent in AFTER his DQ from the Detroit Marathon. It would've been his attempt to 'prove himself' in lieu of the DQ. Brian Smith did not write the note.
shouldnt it be SKIP litton, as in he skips most of the course...
MOMONEY wrote:
shouldnt it be SKIP litton, as in he skips most of the course...
Or even Skip Alotton?
Clarkston Kent wrote:
Subsequent inquiry concluded it was Kip himself who submitted it - touting himself. It was sent in AFTER his DQ from the Detroit Marathon. It would've been his attempt to 'prove himself' in lieu of the DQ. Brian Smith did not write the note.
How do you know it was he?
KipInAHaystack wrote:
Wrap up the investigation for the 2009 City of Trees Marathon - add another Disqualification to Kip's list.
Here is most of the race director's reply (I removed a little, for public consumption):
"We caught him doing the same thing, only we didn't have the time to check on his past. We just thought he cut course since he didn't get his picture taken with the pack at mile 10 or mile 22, but we dq'd him for awards, and left his time online so we could compare at a later date. THANK YOU SO MUCH for the info. I don't know why people do that..."
"...my best friend and the guy who sets up the course is very aware of all the goings on with the top 5 runners as he usually finishes 2nd or 3rd. He told me upon the race finish, 'No way that guy ran the whole race, I never passed him, or saw him.'"
I don't get it. There's nothing wrong with being able to run a sub 1:30 half marathon, it's a decent time for a masters runner. From the details in this thread it looks like Mr. Litton can do that.
Do you think maybe there's just some sort of thrill involved in being able to pull these things off? I've seen people blatantly cheat at races. I ran the Around the Bay one year and saw a young guy rollerblading the course, with his bib and chip and shoes draped over his shoulder, sarcastically telling people 'great job' as he wheeled past them. There's no rollerblade category at the ATB, and he nets either a silver (sub 2:15) or gold (sub 2:00) medal and rubs it in others faces.
Why would anyone do it? I just don't get it.
Ekiden man wrote:
Clarkston Kent wrote:Subsequent inquiry concluded it was Kip himself who submitted it - touting himself. It was sent in AFTER his DQ from the Detroit Marathon. It would've been his attempt to 'prove himself' in lieu of the DQ. Brian Smith did not write the note.
How do you know it was he?
I'll bundle 3 queries about my post w/one response. I don't know who 'Fred' is, but it's not Kip.
I don't owe anybody here an explanation as to how it was determined it was Kip that wrote the note to Michigan Runner. I can tell you there was correspondence with him following his Detroit DQ and publication of the bogus note to MR. He failed to explain who Brian Smith was. Interestingly, there's a Brian Smith who runs and lives within a mile of Kip. There's more, but that's enough.
If I had a patient named Brian Smith, I'd have been quick to say that. Kip never did. The question was posed to him pointedly, 'Who's Brian Smith?' He didn't say he was a patient of his. He didn't put up much of a fight when told it was felt he wrote the note. If I felt I were innocent, I'd have quickly produced evidence to support my case. He failed to do so.
case sensitive wrote:
[quote]KipInAHaystack wrote:
Why would anyone do it? I just don't get it.
Out of the MILLIONS of people doing these races what are the odds that NO ONE would have a psychological compulsion to cheat?
Why would Tiger forsake his very attractive wife for a much less attractive ho? The thrill of doing something "forbidden" gives a serious buzz to some. Anyhting that provides adrenaline can become addictive.
working on an updated timeline:
so far....
Date Event Gun Time Chip Time Difference Key Suspicions
05/23/09 Bayshore (Michigan) Marathon 02:55:40 02:52:58 00:02:42 1:30:13 1st Half; 1:22:45 2nd Half
08/22/09 Crim (Michigan) 10 mile ? 00:56:55 ? unusually fast time; “removed” from official results, yet result is still listed on Athlinks.com
09/06/09 New Mexico Marathon 02:58:38 02:57:53 00:00:45 5000ft Altitude; 2nd overall; delayed start; 4th place finisher swears he didn't see him
10/04/09 City of Trees (Idaho) Marathon ? 02:55:45 ? Race Director DQ for awards – missing from photographs at key locations along race course
10/18/09 Detroit Free Press Marathon Relay ? ? ? RACE DIRECTOR DQ subsequent to investigation of relay team
11/01/09 Manchester City Marathon (NH) ? 02:54:06 ? Negative split – 1:28:13, 1:25:53; race is hillier and more difficult in 2nd half
01/17/10 PF Chang Arizona Marathon 02:55:28 02:51:21 00:04:07 video; net difference
02/27/10 Gasparilla 15K 00:57:11 00:54:05 00:03:06 went through half in 29:11(7.5K)
02/27/10 Gasparilla 5K 00:20:40 00:17:33 00:03:07 walking @17:33 5K
02/27/10 Gasparilla Marathon 02:57:56 02:53:52 00:04:04 1:31:01 1st half
03/20/10 Shamrock (Virginia) 8K 00:35:15 00:29:10 00:06:05 long sleeve & long pants, finished with slower people because he started so far back
03/21/10 Shamrock (Virginia) Marathon 02:56:53 02:53:15 00:03:38 outfit change (pants, jacket)
04/11/10 Go! St. Louis Marathon 02:59:31 02:54:25 00:05:06 missing splits for 6miles & 20miles, and all other in finishers in the top 20 (Kip was 19th) have these splits
04/18/10 BAA Boston 5K Road Race 00:21:21 00:17:17 00:04:04 large difference from gun v. net (4:04)...17:17 net 5K (5:34 pace/mile) in a baggy blue windbreaker and long pants
04/19/10 BAA BOSTON MARATHON ? 02:52:12 ? outfit change (pants, ball cap)
05/02/10 Providence COX Marathon 02:56:13 02:52:39 00:03:34 outfit change (shoes, shorts)
05/16/10 Delaware Marathon DISQUALIFIED – 02:57:16 N/A N/A RACE DIRECTOR DQ
05/30/10 KeyBank Vermont City Marathon 02:53:36 02:49:02 00:04:34 net difference; 6:11/mi for final 10K
07/03/10 West Wyoming Marathon Race doesnt exist – FABRICATED a 02:56:12 N/A N/A FABRICATION – Kip came in 1st place but Race does NOT EXIST! (confirmed by marathonguide.com)
07/11/10 Missoula Montana Marathon DISQUALIFIED – 02:49 RACE DIRECTOR DQ
08/28/10 Crim (Michigan) 10 mile DNS – Injury N/A N/A N/A
09/12/10 Rochester NY Marathon 02:57:59 02:57:25 00:00:34 1st Master - $300 prize money
10/03/10 Maine Half Marathon ? 01:28:14 ? sub-par relative to recent performances. We've heard he was followed by person on bike to ensure he ran full distance.
11/20/10 Sandy Springs (Atlanta, GA) Half Marathon Race doesnt exist – FABRICATED – 1:20:44 N/A N/A FABRICATION – Race does NOT EXIST!
12/01/10 Charlotte Thunderbird Marathon 03:00:24 02:55:20 00:05:04 6:11pace from 13.1 to 20miles, bib covered & walking at finish
12/04/10 Pine Hills 5K Race doesnt exist – FABRICATED FABRICATION – Race does NOT EXIST!
I'll have to admit I'm interested in your posts Clarkston Kent and have wondered where you've been the past few days but you strike me as a little bit of a control freak with your responses on this thread.
If you have information, then spill it but don't keep posting with comments like "that's enough" or "I don't owe anybody an explanation".
Why even post that? This is with all do respect. Just come clean and let us know your situation as best you can as I assume you live in Clarkston.
KipInAHaystack wrote:
Very nice timeline.
Don't forget:
9/12/10 Rochester Marathon, $300 prize
What's been missing with regard to the Rochester Marathon is better information about whether anything is suspicious about his performance. I originally pointed out (2nd thread) that he had a 'start time' of 34 sec, with only 13 slower starting runners in a field of about 600.
'Long Sox' (page 9 of this thread) then reviewed the available pictures of Kip, and mentioned once again that there are few photos of him compared to other runners. The pictures he linked show him clutching at his leg before the finish, then walking across the line.
If there were a fairly complete sequence of photos mid-race which showed other nearby finishers and not Kip, that would provide better reason for suspicion about his performance. Well, I just finished searching through Brightroom's photos, and have found just such a sequence.
Finishing results are given here:
http://www.rochestermarathon.com/content/docs/2010%20Results%20-%20Full%20Overall.pdfBrightroom's photo browser is here:
http://www.brightroom.com/view_event_photos.asp?EVENTID=61901&PWD=RochesterIt's not as convenient as it could have been to find the sequence, as after about 30 thumbnails, photos from another part of the race appear. Nonetheless, a sequence can be found. Enter 740 for the 'Start with photo' number and view 48 photos per page. Repeat the viewing with photo 804, photo 876, and photo 1020. Photos in this sequence were taken somewhere along the canal.
By doing this, I could identify everyone who eventually finished between the first runner (Bib 577) to the 25 overall finisher. [The latter was a team entrant (Bib 3326), which had a finishing time of 3:04:21.] That is, everyone except one. Kip Litton, whose finishing time is listed as 2:57:59.
Looking at the course map, these photos would have been taken no earlier than around mile 10. Canal section continues past mile 20, so could be significantly later.
All the other sub 3-hour finishers appear no later than 22nd place in this sequence. Kip is not seen even as far down as 39th place. (I suspect a gap in the photos beyond this, which continue with photo 1236.)
Intermediate splits with racing positions could make this a closed case. They either weren't taken, or weren't reported.
Maybe there is other evidence (or lack thereof) that will show up ... for now, I'd list this as a questionable performance.
KipInAHaystack wrote:
Wrap up the investigation for the 2009 City of Trees Marathon - add another Disqualification to Kip's list.
Here is most of the race director's reply
Nice research! Something tells me we'll be digging up bones for years.
Easy florida, I feel the same way about Clarkston Kent but keep digging and don't worry about him. He has good info and you do as well.
kip the sip wrote:
Easy florida, I feel the same way about Clarkston Kent but keep digging and don't worry about him. He has good info and you do as well.
You're right, just ticks me off a little, he has good info.
Back to the digging.
Wow...this is epic. Wow. Wow. Wow. Kip is psychologically unwell. I all of this I noticed 2-3 obscure posts suggesting why go after his personal practice and ruin the guy? One even implied it could drive him over the edge and we'd have blood on our hands. I think this could well be Kip himself. This tells me the guy is seriously sick in the head and needs psychiatric evaluation.
However he is also very likely a criminal who has an acoomplice and there is money being donated to a 'charity' which means he and his sidekick are pocketing the money. When this blows up the IRS ought to audit Mr. Litton.
In fact, they might want to crawl up his ass with a microscope. There is a reward given by the IRS for turning in tax cheats and frauds. I think it's about $2000. One of you young guns ought to go for it.
florida oldtimer wrote:
kip the sip wrote:Easy florida, I feel the same way about Clarkston Kent but keep digging and don't worry about him. He has good info and you do as well.
You're right, just ticks me off a little, he has good info.
Back to the digging.
Let's put it this way, I have better info than anybody. What's appeared on this thread has supplemented what I know. I didn't know he might've made up race results for events that don't exist. I looked into the West WY Marathon by contacting a Jackson Hole sports writer who said he knew of no such race.
I see no reason why I should share how I know what I know. Some of it is simple detective work. Some is...well, as per above, let's put it this way - his email address is not a secret.