I don’t understand Net Neutrality. Everything I DuckDuckGo is horribly biased. WTH is it?

The Daily Kos!

Keeping the FCC on top of NN is important up until around the 2019-2020 timeframe when 5G/IOT takes over, and TV shows unbundling will occur, plus there will be open EBB Intternet, M@m wireless, and 5G TV. This means instead of a few dozen dominant internet providers there will literally be millions in the USA alone. Every home, convenience store, gas station, traffic intersection, etc will have be able to provide direct internet service without Govt censorship or Corporate throttling.

On a different slant, this seems like such an important issue that I think Congress should debate it and pass a law and not have a bureaucrat or two make the decision.

(Net neutrality rules were written by FCC , not a law passed by Congress).

I'm not totally decided where I stand on this net neutrality thing.

My biases:

-- The interest and all the cool tech along with it was developed by innovative private companies, not the govt.

-- Govt regulation is more typically a bad thing than good thing, but can be either.

-- I'm a T-Mobile user and their "free video streaming" (essentially compressing and de-prioritizing streaming content) which lowers the quality, but makes it available in unlimited quantities for a low price, goes against net neutrality tenets, but is good for the consumer who chooses T-Mobile.

I do feel slightly that 'net neutrality' is a solution in search of a problem. Prior to 2015, was Comcast charging extra to view Google relative to Yahoo. Of course not? What makes everyone think they will start doing that now? And I say that knowing full well that Comcast execs are complete corporate dbags.

Did the 2015 net neutrality do anything to address the problems of local monopolies on internet service? Not as far as I can tell. So why this fear of reversal leading to more monopoly?

In other aspects of life, there is definitely different pricing for peak services and peak periods. Want a drink after happy hour ends? You pay more. Want to use your washing machine at 5pm in Phoenix instead of 2am in Phoenix? You pay more per kwh. Why should internet utilities be held to a different standard?

Since when is full speed Netflix a god-given right? First world problem if I ever heard it. Would you rather have your 4k netflix not pixelate for 1 second or some grandma in the boonies able to call EMS via her VOIP phone line? QOS rules make sense for local networks and for bigger ones too. Why punish these companies for trying to optimize traffic over the multi-billion dollar networks they build, maintain, and support for ALL costumers? If the customer isn't happy for whatever reason, the are free to cancel service.

Again, solution in search of problem. Better things for politicians to worry about.

Hi 'millenial', seeing this thread pop up again, I'd just like to help clarify a few things you may not have been aware of based on your post.

1. Net neutrality has always been a part of the web and governance in the USA. There were many examples prior to 2015 where companies broke NN principles and got in trouble. In 2015, the mechanism of enforcing NN was changed by reclassifying ISPs as common carriers. But this was not some drastic change -- we had NN the whole time.

2. Don't confuse tech companies like Google, Netflix, Amazon, etc. with ISPs like Comcast. The tech companies are the ones that have developed all the cool innovations and tech on the web. Eliminating net neutrality is about helping ISPs squeeze down on the pipe they control, which will hurt innovation and competition at the endpoints. If you like at innovative tech companies, generally the smaller and more innovative they are, the more they support net neutrality.

3. Your washing machine analogy is actually perfect. The water company is a common carrier just like ISPs are under net neutrality. NN allows for charging more for peak usage, higher bandwidth and usage, etc. However, the water company is not allowed to charge you a different amount for the water if it goes into one brand of washing machine and a different amount for the same quantity of water if using a different brand. In the same way, under NN, ISPs are already allowed to charge for amount of usage in order to mediate supply and demand, but they can't discriminate prices based on what brands that usage is going toward.

4. I wouldn't say people fear a reversal leading to "more" monopoly. The fear is that reversal will allow companies to *exploit* the monopolies they already have. The FCC is proposing to eliminate regulation but without any proposal toward adding competition, which will allow the monopolies to take a bigger slice of the same pie, leaving consumers and innovative tech companies with a smaller slice.

Hope this is some helpful food for thought and thanks for reading.

Going to need to see more evidence here that we "had NN the whole time" prior to 2015. And assuming you are right, what is to say we won't have any continued de-facto NN post-2017 absent any legislation/policy?

Disagree. There are lots of innovations coming out of ISPs as well. Is your internet faster today in 2017 than it was in 1999? Who made that happen? Why are cell companies coming out with new tech 3g, 4g, 5g and new tiny IOT modems? Why don't they just rest their laurels on old tech and call it a day?

Well, that's a different analogy than I was suggesting, but even still doesn't really "hold water" lol. Utilities charger farmers less per unit of water than they charge my household usage? They also forbid me to water my lawn except every Tuesday (during the California drought). If the govt gets away with this, why shouldn't ISPs?

This is your best argument, but is purely speculative. Just because something *could* happen, doesn't mean it will.

you people are missing the point. it's not about curated content. ISPs have had different price packages for years. it's not about that. that is just a distraction from the real issues. it is about being able to access anything on the web that is not illegal. i live in a community that has one ISP, charter communications. one of the worst companies in america. if they chose, and i guarantee that they will, their competitors in the news/information market will see reduced speed or even outright blocks. the government will bully isps all over the nation, like they've been doing the last few weeks, and force them to block websites like rt, and AlJazeera. now some of you red-neck fascists may say "good, they need to be blocked", but then one day when some neo-liberal gets in the white house you will see your beloved fox news blocked. i don't want anybody telling me what i can watch, i'm a 64 yr old grown gd man, and i don't want anyone telling me what the truth is. if net neutrality is repealed you will the six owners of main stream news and the government start restricting content. you will only hear and see what they want you to. goodbye democracy, goodbye freedom of the press, or at least what's left of it, goodbye to the free exchange of ideas, and hello to censorship, and the continued dumbing down of the american masses. Pai thinks all Americans are stupid. proper government oversight and regulations are needed to keep these media companies in check. i would be willing to bet the farm that one year after the repeal of net neutrality americans will no longer be able to use a VPN, TOR, kodi, or even access the deep web along with price hikes, especially in cities where there's a monopoly, slow downs for popular sites unless you fork over more cash, and a whole host of abuses these corporate hacks are going to shove down your throats. i'm about fed up with this crap I've seen happening in the last 30 years. i may just pack up the whole clan and move to a place where there is still some freedom and civil rights.

Hi again millenial. Unfortunately I don't have time to collect references but I hope you will be willing to look into whether my summary of the history was accurate. The most important court case was Verizon vs the government in 2014 where it was ruled that in order to continue enforcing net neutrality, the FCC would have to reclassify ISPs as title II common carriers. This led to the 2015 rule change.

Regarding infrastructure investment, first it's important to note this current rule change only applies to ISPs not cell phone carriers (it can be confusing because e.g. Verizon does both). Anyway, you might be interested to compare US internet speeds and prices versus other countries in the world, and also look into the history of internet infrastructure in the USA -- where the money for fiber infrastructure actually came from and how it was "invested" by the ISPs.

mac, your doomsday fears are pretty much unfounded.

comcast has been around for a long time and has always had the ability to block RT.com, torrents, etc. have they? I would argue they haven't in 99.9% of case. So why this fear they will begin now?

google has been been around for awhile too and has had the ability to filter search results, exclude site with a DMCA takedown request, etc. have they, yes...their site their rules. i'm okay with that.

I've yet to see a good argument why the govt should be the arbiter of what shows up in my browser and what doesn't. I actually have a great fear of the govt deciding "which sites are more neutral than others". To me, the govt is more inclined to block a site like RT, or bitcoin sites, than are the private companies that supply the pipes. What as a listener is more interesting-- FCC-regulated "neutral" FM/AM/TV airwaves..or podcasts where people can say whatever they want and need a "license" to air their views?

^^^^^ and *don't* need a license to air their view

'know your stuff', what is your counterargument to this? http://blog.erratasec.com/2017/11/the-fcc-has-never-defended-net.html

net using millineal wrote:

I'm not totally decided where I stand on this net neutrality thing.

My biases:

-- The interest and all the cool tech along with it was developed by innovative private companies, not the govt.

Do you mean internet? Because it was developed by the government.

Net Neutrality is one thing.

The other thing:

Do a Google image search for a subject.

Now do the same on Bing.

With the great majority of this country using Google, isn't that something to worry about? We're living in the Google Algorithm world.

theJeff wrote:

Wait, if the internet is like utilities, then why would they charge Netflix and Google? Wouldn't they charge the USERS of the internet instead? You and me?

Netflix and Google are USERS. What do you think they are?

Racket wrote:

Do you mean internet? Because it was developed by the government.

The government is paying for all of the fiber, servers, and wireless connectivity? Since when?

Everyone who says something like "they didn't do evil before 2015," please recall how little the ISP's were pushing their own media delivery back then. Pay attention to commercials now, they don't just hook you up to The Internet, they stick around and show you how their cool remote has all this on-demand stuff over their own Netflix-ish interface.

I'll bet you the farm they're going to gouge away every second they can, until 5G rolls them over and makes them extinct (but look for lots of anti-trust lawsuits to fly, funded by your add-on ISP fees).

Beautiful Day wrote:

Everyone who says something like "they didn't do evil before 2015," please recall how little the ISP's were pushing their own media delivery back then. Pay attention to commercials now, they don't just hook you up to The Internet, they stick around and show you how their cool remote has all this on-demand stuff over their own Netflix-ish interface.

I'll bet you the farm they're going to gouge away every second they can, until 5G rolls them over and makes them extinct (but look for lots of anti-trust lawsuits to fly, funded by your add-on ISP fees).

Hbo, movies, and pay per view didn't exist before 2015?

Uuu wrote:

Beautiful Day wrote:

Everyone who says something like "they didn't do evil before 2015," please recall how little the ISP's were pushing their own media delivery back then. Pay attention to commercials now, they don't just hook you up to The Internet, they stick around and show you how their cool remote has all this on-demand stuff over their own Netflix-ish interface.

I'll bet you the farm they're going to gouge away every second they can, until 5G rolls them over and makes them extinct (but look for lots of anti-trust lawsuits to fly, funded by your add-on ISP fees).

Hbo, movies, and pay per view didn't exist before 2015?

They're pissed that they need to raise your rates to improve their bandwidth because everyone is streaming, and paying people who aren't them. This isn't rocket science.