What else do I need? Sub 50 (48) 400 meter training thread

You workout pretty hard a lot. Introduce some general strength circuits and use fly 30's with other drills to minimize intensity. You are training too hard.

This may come off as negative and not giving much else in return, but you're not going to get to 48 with this kind of training, maybe at all and certainly not THIS summer.

I'm not even sure you break 50 with this kind of training.

But, look, we've all lost this season. You could do worse than just doing this kind of work all summer to keep laying a foundation for NEXT year.

TBH, though, any goals for 48s need to include some weight training into the regiment plus a whole different conceptual understanding of recovery and maxing out in speed. Plus the flip side, too, is extending yourself well beyond just 500s since you even fiddle around with 8s.

But how you'd even go about that depends as much on your skill set as it does about training philosophy/ideology.

@trackislife2 I do some cross training Wednesday’s like calisthenics and stuff. I’ve heard others mention this fly 30’s, would a good workout incorporating these be something like 5(30 fly) and 5(30 block starts)? Also I can’t make my coach budge on the intensity, he’s always telling us to go race pace and all out every rep, and while I know there’s a place for that I don’t know abt it being in every workout session if we want to see big results on the weekend. It’s really not an option so I’m just trying to do what I can to supplement it

My coach isn’t letting me quit this training until I reach it.. that’s really why I’m so hooked on getting this done asap. I do have some range as I did some high school xc for two years (16:10 3 mile) and trained for the mile/800 from October 2019 to late February 2020 before switching to strictly the 400 training,, kind of a long range drop bc I was doing up to 55-65 miles per week with two to three quality/hard running days (3-5 mile tempos, 8(300), etc) mixed in with lots of 6-11 mile runs and sundays long run. Also for more info/updates on progress and questions etc I posted this on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Sprinting/comments/ge91o2/going_for_broke_sub_50_48_400_meter_training/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

What coach is having you do this? Your firmer HS coach or your college coach?

It’s my dad, he’s not gonna allow me to quit this training until I hit the times.

800m track&field runner wrote:

It’s my dad, he’s not gonna allow me to quit this training until I hit the times.

Your dad isn’t your coach. He needs to back off. You have a college coach now and you are also an adult.

That being said, if you are coming from a distance background I’d bet the missing part of the equation is that you need to put on muscle mass and build fast twitch fibers, as well as work on form. I think more top end and hill work would benefit you, along with full body weight work.

CopperRunner wrote:

800m track&field runner wrote:

It’s my dad, he’s not gonna allow me to quit this training until I hit the times.

Your dad isn’t your coach. He needs to back off. You have a college coach now and you are also an adult.

That being said, if you are coming from a distance background I’d bet the missing part of the equation is that you need to put on muscle mass and build fast twitch fibers, as well as work on form. I think more top end and hill work would benefit you, along with full body weight work.

What this guy said.

I mean, 48s are fairly legit, especially coming from a high mileage/51.5ish PR background. You can't just run yourself into the ground to get there. I do not envy your situation, because your dad is not setting you up for reasonable success. But...you won't get fat while doing this. So there's that. It's not like your competing this year, so to an extent you can just rest on your laurels for now until you get the freedom to possibly train properly next year.

But you ain't running 48s training like this. No way. If you you aren't allowed to train differently until you "hit the times"...be prepared to workout like this all summer. Just try not to get injured.

The best way for you to get better at the 400, assuming youre doing a lot of high quality runs anyways, is to try and build some muscle and work on your acceleration -> top end speed. You cant stamina your way to a sub 50 second 400m run unless you have the requisite speed to maintain. Because this season is lost due to the virus, it makes no sense why youre coach is having you do so many high intensity workouts. You're young use this time to buld the fundamentals and as you get faster and stronger you'll have an easier time maintaining the speed since youre accustomed to high lactate workouts

I've written about this in other threads. You are not fast enough to run a 48 or even a 49 second 400m. The key to a fast 400m is 200m speed. Consider to run a 48 you need to go out in about 23 seconds for the first 200 and then come back in about 25 seconds for the second 200. You just can't do that if your PR in the 200 is 22.9 (I assume hand timed). You need a minimum of about 22 seconds flat (auto-timed, out of blocks) in the 200 to come anywhere close to a 48 second 400. The general rule is you can only run the first 200 of a 400 about 1-1.5 seconds slower than your 200 meter PR, and then you're still going to drop another 1-1.5 seconds for the second 200. Any faster than that and you will slow down a lot more than just a second or so for that second 200. So right now the best you can hope for is right around 50 seconds flat.

So the key for you is more speed. You need to get your 100 and 200 meter times down. I've had high school kids that were sub 22 second 200 meter runners run in the 48s with no real endurance training at all. When you can run the 200 in 21.5, going out in 23 seconds for a 400 is practically a jog.

No offense. But, unfortunately this is a terrible idea. It will not work unless you have been sandbagging all of your 400m TTs up to now.

To go from 51 to 48, an athlete needs more than just the next 3 weeks. So it's just simply not going to happen right now this May. Don't get me wrong -- your 150's and 300's are fine, but to drop 3 seconds you need time to develop more pieces of the puzzle.

Going from 51 to 48 would likely take around 8-12 months of well-planned and well-executed training, and you STILL might not quite get there without doing the same 8-12 months again.

You would need a periodized plan to develop all aspects of speed, speed endurance, special endurance I, and special endurance II. You would need early to mid season work on tempo endurance (hey distance guys reading this, I'm not talking about tempo runs for distance training -- I mean 200m repeats a la Clyde Hart), and possibly also early season 800-1200m repeats that come down to mid-season 600-800m repeats.

If you want to focus on the 800, it would be would be far better for your 800m development (looking ahead over the next 4 years) if you spent this spring & summer doing solid basework, then do XC -- which is great for 800m -- and come into track season with a more developed aerobic engine.

Look at it this way: 51 speed with poor aerobic development = 2:00-02 ish. 51 speed with excellent aerobic development = 1:52-54 ish. Where do you want to be next spring?

Also, who knows? Maybe your college coach will move you to the 1500m anyway. 51 speed that slowly improves over a 4-year college career, plus plenty of aerobic development over the 4 years, could result in a strong 1500.

At any rate, doing what you are describing right now seems unlikely to be very productive. I'd suggest that maybe you and your dad consider re-focusing your training priorities and moving in a direction that will contribute to your longer-term athletic development.

I don’t think y’all understand the gravity of the situation lol he’s not going to let it go, I’ve tried talking to him about it and our entire family’s got this running culture but it’s not just that, I’m fine with running it’s just this type of training I don’t see it happening bc it’s missing some key components. Try giving that I’m an adult reasoning to them and they’ll go well you better start living on your own then since you’re an adult. So I’m back to square one trying to get this time. Aside from that to give you some more background I’m actually very well built, have a (5years) baseball/ 1 year football/ 2 years wrestling background so the problem isn’t necessarily the amount of muscle I have packed on as the functional use it has directly to sprinting.. I do agree that form for me is something I always seem to need work on especially towards the finish as my head moves from side to side but I will definitely go ahead and incorporate some hill/top end speed work a little at a time. Idk if y’all know the club but I ran with RunCCG from October -February so that can be some reference as to the strength and endurance training I have under the belt (not as a bragging point but to show y’all where I’m coming from physiologically)

This is horrible training that’ll just get you injured. 22.9 also doesn’t suggest a 48 400, unless you can also run between 1:50-52 in the 800

Don't listen to all the negativity on here, I'm sure there's a way to have you reach your goals. It sounds like you're strong enough if you're an xc/800 guy. I agree with the guys saying to work on your max velocity sprinting and lifting. The best predictor of 400m times are 200m times and the best predictor of 200m times is max velocity. I would do some research on max velocity work, plyometrics, and explosive lifting for runners. here's a start from a sprint coach who's work I enjoy:

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0115/9822/24_Pages_of_Speaker_Notes_and_____Extras_Coach_Tony_Holler_2017.pdf

This is all EXACTLY what I told my coach, about how I feel like I need to get a faster 200 time bc of the 1.5 second rule or the take your 200 pr, double it and add 4 seconds which would bring me to no less than about a 50 right now. Also my splits for the past like 5 weeks of time trials (when I hit 51s) were usually 24.5 and then I come around with a 27 so even then it’s a 2.5 second differential. I recently (as of this Tuesday) ran some (2) 350s and a 250 And I came by the 200 in 23, and then on the last 250 in 22 flat so my speed has gone up since :) my brother who has a pr of 48.4 (FAT) runs these workouts with me and ran through the 200 with me in the 21s so that proves out to be correct (although he’s only ran 49 this year). Are there some workouts you would recommend to increase my top 100-200 speed? I’ve heard some of the other posters replying with the 30 fly workout, but could you suggest some others and if possible I’ll try to put it in on Wednesday’s.

Thanks so much for the positivity and articles! I’ll be reading this, and yeah for example in training for indoor I had done a 3 mile tempo run at 6:00” pace, then had 5 mins rest then 6x200 run with a jog in between at 27-29 seconds and then weights afterwards, so I’m used to some harder training it’s just I really felt like I’ve been missing something. We haven’t incorporated plyos, if anything some light jump rope, and the last lifting I did was in the first two months of this year doing supplementary things like 10 sets of 10 squats (155-185 one set athletic power technique alternating with the other set full deep squats), assisted pull-ups, crunches etc

You look more like a speed 400 guy. So that doesn't mean you should be doing over distance stuff. I know some of you may think that is counter intuitive.

You should avoid the 450 and 500 stuff.

Run 300s. Play around with the recovery. You're still a young guy, so freshness and growing maturity will work in your favor.

As a mature athlete I used to run 10 X 300 with 100 walk recovery. In college we ran sub 40s with 45 seconds recovery. 300s are all you need.

I'd go with 5 X 300. Develop a good rhythm and efficient speed. Get your 200 down a little also your 100. Run some 150s. So you can work on the rhythm of the start and entering the backs straight. As an aside, I ran 46 seconds when it meant something. I rarely did anything over 300. And when I did longer stuff it was more ladders, playing with the recovery.

Good luck. 48 from 51 is a fair old drop, but maturity helps. And speed. You need speed to run fast. Not slog.

800m track&field runner wrote:

I don’t think y’all understand the gravity of the situation lol he’s not going to let it go.

I will definitely go ahead and incorporate some hill/top end speed work a little at a time.

Hills are not really ideal for late season stuff. Hills WILL NOT get anybody, you or otherwise, from 51 to 48 all of a sudden. It takes time to develop faster top-end speed. Hills can be a great early season part of that component. The power you develop OVER TIME from hills can translate to faster speed on the track, when post-hill-phase workouts are properly applied OVER TIME.

Also, even if an athlete in your position is able to marginally improve top-end speed within 2-3 weeks from doing a few hill sprints, it takes much more than just being able to run super fast for 30-60-100 meters. Adding willpower and stick-to-it-ness to the equation, while admirable, simply won't do it.

Others have made valid points on this thread. Those points aren't negative, just realistic.

May I humbly suggest that you and your dad/coach read what I wrote, above, regarding the various pieces of the 400m puzzle. It's all there, more or less, summarized from sources far wiser and more experienced than myself.

Again, not being negative. Just pointing out, as clearly and straightforwardly as I can, that trying to drop 3 seconds off a low-50s 400m PR, without doing the actual work that is required, is magical thinking.

If an athlete could just run a few 150s, 300s, and 500s every week for a month, add in some hill sprints, and then drop THREE SECONDS off their 400m, then don't you think every numb-nuts out there would already be doing that?? Hell, I would have done it for three months in a row and gone from 50.x to 41.x for a massive WR.

If you want to significantly improve in the 400m, you have to do the work. Ain't no shortcuts.

Nuff said.

Kid is talented and will do well in college. Great attitude, he's very athletic. Just survive summer young man get to ORU, I'm happy you ended up there. To be honest I still think you are a miler long term, but we won't know till you get to college. It was fun working with you for a few months, your college coach will love your attitude.