10-12x400 @ 3k with 30s rest

Seems extremely difficult to me

Adjusting for conditions, such as training shoes, weather, no taper, etc. if the 400s are done at 61-63 they are absolutely not 3k pace. Drew Hunter cannot run 61-62s for 3k right now given his recent injury. 62s is Hunter’s PR pace. Now adjust for current fitness and the other conditions and that workout essentially becomes a race effort. It sounds very hard. No wonder all of Tinman Elite are injured.

It’s a 15 minute fartlek. The reps are fast, yes, but it’s not like they are running mile pace (~58s). If you think 10x400 at mile pace with a minute rest is doable, I’d say this workout is equally so, maybe more controlled since you’re never really running faster than Vo2Max.

TME Hater wrote:

Adjusting for conditions, such as training shoes, weather, no taper, etc. if the 400s are done at 61-63 they are absolutely not 3k pace. Drew Hunter cannot run 61-62s for 3k right now given his recent injury. 62s is Hunter’s PR pace. Now adjust for current fitness and the other conditions and that workout essentially becomes a race effort. It sounds very hard. No wonder all of Tinman Elite are injured.

+ 1 ! In such a workout they need at least around 1 min rest.What Tinman forgets is that the recovery time is at least as important as the effort. It's during the recovery phase the actual training effect occurs.

- The Wizard -

If *truly* done at current 3k PR pace, that seems maybe doable but extremely difficult: a test session rather than a building session.

Well, the Veronique Billat workout is at your 6 minute race pace. Suppose (to make the math easier) a world-class runner can do 6 laps in 6 minutes. The Billat workout would be 400m in 60 seconds, jog 200m in 60 seconds. She would have you do about 15 of them. That's the "60-60" workout.

If that was too hard, you could do about 30 x 200m in 30 seconds alternating with 100 jogs in 30 seconds. That's the "30-30" workout. Eventually she would have you do 5 x 1200m in 3 min with a 600m jog between in 3 min. That looks brutal to me.

So the Tinman workout you describe is similar to the Billat 60-60, but the pace is a little slower (7-8 minute race pace) and you are only covering 100m with the jog instead of 200m. And instead of doing 15 minutes of the hard pace, you are doing 10+ minutes. But then you are following it with a 3k-5k tempo run, so overall difficulty could be similar. How much rest between the repeats and tempo?

I have done the Billat workout (scaled down for my age and ability and pain tolerance) usually as 200m repeats in around 45 seconds. I usually quit after about 14-16 and I find it pretty hard. I think it is a great workout and the short (for me) active rest catches up to you pretty quickly. My best event is the 800m, followed by 400m and 1500m/mile.

I like a variation where I go a little faster (42-43 seconds) but take equal standing rest instead of 100m jog,. That seems to be good for preparation for a good 800m race.

Of course I failed to note that the rest in the TInman workout is only 30 seconds so that would make it pretty damn hard!

I thought Tinman training was revolutionary and unique?

400s at Vo2 max plus a threshold run afterward is a staple of the Australian system under coach Bideau and has been for many years.

Not impressed.

I did this exact workout during my previous training cycle (12x400 @ goal 5k pace with 30s rest). It was definitely hard, but I hit my paces and ran solo. I don’t even follow the Tinman group. The reason I did this workout was to prepare for a 5k I thought I would be racing 3 weeks later. Completing this workout gave me confidence I could hit my 5k goal time.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

TME Hater wrote:

Adjusting for conditions, such as training shoes, weather, no taper, etc. if the 400s are done at 61-63 they are absolutely not 3k pace. Drew Hunter cannot run 61-62s for 3k right now given his recent injury. 62s is Hunter’s PR pace. Now adjust for current fitness and the other conditions and that workout essentially becomes a race effort. It sounds very hard. No wonder all of Tinman Elite are injured.

+ 1 ! In such a workout they need at least around 1 min rest.What Tinman forgets is that the recovery time is at least as important as the effort. It's during the recovery phase the actual training effect occurs.

- The Wizard -

If I had coached Hunter he would be doing 20 x 400m at 63-64 sec ( his 5 k race pace) with rest back to 120 bpm ( around 60 sec) almost every week , and when it comes to preparing and sharpening him before main mile races I had put in repetitions like 6-8 x 400m at 57-58 sec ( mile race pace) with rest back to 100 bpm or less and to prepare a 3 k race he had been doing 10-12 x 400m at 61-62 sec with rest back to 120 bpm .World class coaching.

- Just magical! -

Givetallugot wrote:

I did this exact workout during my previous training cycle (12x400 @ goal 5k pace with 30s rest).

So the stipulated workout is at 3k pace, your workout was at 5k pace, and you're saying it was the "exact workout"?

Always remember one of the most important rules when it comes to running and training:

You should train based on your current ability, not a faster expected goal pace

Coach J.S., are the heart rate recovery numbers you use based on a maximum HR of 180? Or 200? Or another number?

Drew Hunter, a 7:40 guy, has done the workout twice recently.

On HIGH altitude (Boulder)

12x400 with 100 jog rest, in 64s (35-40s rest)

8 minute jog

3 mile threshold (4:59-4:52-4:48)

64s at altitude is probably around 62s on flat, which would be his exact 3k pace. Followed by 3 mile threshold at Daniel's threshold, so no jogging.

On FLAT place (hometown)

800 in 2:25, 400 jog

10x400 in 65-63-63-63-63-62-62-61-60-59 with 100 JOG rest (35-45s rest)

400 jog after last One

5x200-29-28-28-28-27 with 200 jog rest

5 minute jog

2 mile tempo- (5:15-5:07)

Again they were ~3k pace, progressing down to mile pace all on very short rest (a bit more than 30s, but it's active jogging/shuffling). The 200s were around 800m effort, and the tempo very relaxed at Tinman Tempo/MP.

Judging from his workouts he is already in great shape again. The VO2MAX work seems to be more important in Tinman Elite now after they collectively underperformed at Boston 5k. I will try one of these workouts myself next week I think.

I've done a similar workout (10x400m @ 69-70s / 45s, when I could probably run a 8:35-40 3k)

It's not too hard - 30s would make it a bit more difficult.

msb21 wrote:

I've done a similar workout (10x400m @ 69-70s / 45s, when I could probably run a 8:35-40 3k)

It's not too hard - 30s would make it a bit more difficult.

Did you jog a 100m during it or just standing rest? That also makes a different, they jog 100m and take as much time as they need, usually slowing down a bit (starting with doing them in 35s and then slowing down to 40s, maybe even 45s).

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Coach J.S., are the heart rate recovery numbers you use based on a maximum HR of 180? Or 200? Or another number?

It seems to doesn`t matter if your MHR is 180 or 200. But you can test with 60 % of MHR if you have 180 and then use 110 bpm as rest reference and see what it gives to your resttime when e.g running 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace. If it takes around 60 sec to come back to 120 bpm that is the mark you should use. If it goes faster to return to 120 bpm you should use 110 bpm as your rest reference mark.Good luck!

I think that workout is a bit too hard, with 60s rest it would be perfect (and a bit more volume would be nice).

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

msb21 wrote:

I've done a similar workout (10x400m @ 69-70s / 45s, when I could probably run a 8:35-40 3k)

It's not too hard - 30s would make it a bit more difficult.

Did you jog a 100m during it or just standing rest? That also makes a different, they jog 100m and take as much time as they need, usually slowing down a bit (starting with doing them in 35s and then slowing down to 40s, maybe even 45s).

I checked and I actually did standing rest for that specific w/o, not sure why as I usually jog the rest period.

It's a good workout - not too strenuous but still stimulating.