1/2 marathoner to 400'er. critique my base training coming from a distance background

you're running way too much

i dont get itt wrote:

you're running way too much

I'm coming from a distance background 45-65mpw. My 7 weeks of 400m base training with weight lifting has been 37/20/38/20/47/38/41. This seems reasonable, no? Next phase I will now spend 3 weeks powerlifting with average mileage of 25-40mpw, easy jogging/drills/ long and short sprints. Then next phase 3 weeks of specific 400m training, 2 weeks coordination training, then race.

400 runners don't need long runs. Maybe 4-6 miles on the weekend if its an itch you need to scratch. Most of your interval reps should be between 100-600 meters. You should get in the weight room more, and your tempo runs are now 1-3 miles at a faster pace. 100-200 meter strides after every easy run.

More speed wrote:

400 runners don't need long runs. Maybe 4-6 miles on the weekend if its an itch you need to scratch. Most of your interval reps should be between 100-600 meters. You should get in the weight room more, and your tempo runs are now 1-3 miles at a faster pace. 100-200 meter strides after every easy run.

Thanks for input. Definitely will need to scratch the 6 mile itch. Time trialed a 5:16 1600 yesterday, which I was wasn't thrilled with. However I will do an 800 time trial soon, if I'm under 2:18 I think I'll have the confidence to do more speed work and get away from endurance.

Definitely way too much mileage for the 400. I also can understand how weird that probably seems to you, since from your perspective you have already cut down your mileage a ton.

Hypothetically, if you were to fully transition from your 1/2-marathon distance background down to a normal/standard 400m training plan, the low low mileage and the super-fast speedwork (I'd guess that it would feel like pretty much everything is speedwork) would be a strange experience. You'd probably feel like you're going nuts (for lack of mileage), and it may also be unlikely that you would respond optimally to the type of 400m training plan that would be normal and optimal for 400m runners.

As you may have read (lots of good info out there), there are two general approaches to 400m training: short-to-long and long-to-short. "Short to long" 400m training works well for fast sprinters who work to develop more stamina over the training season; they train to to run fast, farther. "Long to short" 400m training works well those who are good at maintaining a hard effort for 1-2 minutes but will likely burn out with constant high-end sprint workouts done over months; this group responds better to slightly higher training volume and slowly, steadily introducing faster & faster sprint workouts over the course of the training season.

I might suggest, for you, something like a "very long transitioning to shorter" training approach. It would involve more mileage than a typical 400m runner, but less mileage than what you are currently doing (even though you already reduced your mileage). It would also involve slowly and carefully introducing true speedwork over time (since your 1/2-marathon-running-legs aren't accustomed to this, too much too soon may result in injury and/or burnout).

What is your goal for the 400? Over what period of time?

agreed. You seem to be training more like a mile / 800 guy than a 400 guy. But for base training it's not too bad, I guess.

Great info Sub-8 Mile. I think the long-to-fast approach is definitely the way the go, I just hadn't put my finger on it until you said it. I'm looking to run the 400 meter dash around the 4th of july. Usually there is a club track race around that time, but it may have to be a time trial this year with covid. Last year I ran 57.41 at the race. This year I would like to be 54.xx or better.

I've been hitting the hills hard all of april. After this week, I will do one last very long run, then switch one of my hill workouts for a track workout. Wish to avoid injury so any advice on the best methods for the long-to-fast approach from my 35-40mpw standpoint right now would be great. Thanks all

What's your 200m time right now? Have you done a 200 time trial? Having this knowledge will greatly help to know where you are and what further needs to be done.

What do y'all think of transition to more quality and harder long run the past 3 weeks?

Transition from Base

Week 8

3 wu; 1 mile TT 5:22; 3 cd

4 easy

am- Lift; pm- 2 wu 3 x 1200/600. 90" rest. 2 cd. (4:23/2:05, 4:16/2:03, 4:15/1:59)

6 easy

3 east + Lift

18 Long trail run @7:30/mile

Total: 45

Week 9

am- Lift; pm- 4 easy

6 easy

am - lift; pm - 5 x 1200 hill. 45" rest. (4:50; 4:51; 4:46, 4:58, 4:47)

6 easy

10mi bike

2 wu; 3k TT 10:34; 2 cd. 10mi bike.

10mi bike

Total 31mi run; 30mi bike

Week 10

am- lift; pm - 6 easy

7 easy

am - lift; pm - 4 x1200/600. 70" rest. (4:31/2:11; 4:26/2:09; 4:21/2:10; 4:21/1:58)

5 easy

Lift. no run.

7 easy

19 hard long run @6:46/mile

Total: 51mi

Way way waayyyyy too many miles for 400m training, esp less than 2 months out from your race. 18-19 mile runs? 5 x 1200m with 45 sec recovery? Yikes!! Not for the 400 - no offense - obviously you are working hard at it. Sorry I didn't see this thread again until now; I would have clarified. When I said "long-to-short" I was talking about something completely different ... I was referring to 400m training programs starting with repeats mostly in the 400-1200m range mixed with some faster stuff, for a total training volume around 15-25 mi/week. As opposed to "short-to-long" which would start from higher speed repeats mostly 100-400m and a training volume around 10-20 mi/week. When I said:

... I meant maybe 25 or 30 mpw max. That would be "more mileage than a typical 400m runner, but less than what you are currently doing" - as I was suggesting.

Despite the admirable effort you're putting into your training, what you've been doing is very far from any sort of approach that would be likely to optimize your 400 this July.

I'll put a little thought into it (it's an interesting and unusual case, rapidly transitioning from 1/2 marathon to 400m training) and will post more specific suggestions later.

... Although I do see your thought process and how you've structured your transition thus far.

Basically, those long runs gotta go if you are serious about doing as well as you can at the 400 in July. That, and a different set of repeats.

I'll post some specific ideas in the morning.

Getting back to those long runs, are you trying to stay in touch with your LD training, while working more specifically on the 400m for a couple of months? Or are you willing to forget the LD training for now, and get back to it after doing your 400?

Yeah the long runs have been getting out of hand- I got roped into helping a friend build up for a quarantine solo marathon. He ran well in 3:03.

I 'd like to stay in touch with LD but no more 16-19 milers. Just 80-90 minutes easy on saturday or sunday from now on. Mentally I just can't go below 25mpw, I think I can consistently stay around 35mpw all summer and stay sane. It's getting hotter, so my need for mileage will go away soon.

Where do you think to go from here? This is new territory for me. I almost feel like I should just do a ton top speed 10x40, 8x60, shuttle runs, etc. Get that leg speed turnover.

Or how important is the speed endurance, is this something I need to build up over time, or can be done in a 3-5 weeks similar to v02 work?

All right. It's the morning. Here's what I'd suggest for you:

Mon/Tue/Thu/Fri - easy run plus 4-8 strides of 50-100m, not a sprint or an acceleration, just smooth turnover. Start the easy run at 6 mi, then decrease it by 1 mi/week until you get to 3. After that, increase the pace of those 3-mi runs just a bit each week, so that they become easy tempo.

Wed - Long Repeats, transitioning shorter/faster. I'd encourage you to pick up the pace a bit, and take longer recovery compared to your recent sessions. This is important for an event such as 400m which uses muscles and energy systems that are different from LD running. I suggest this progression, with the pace getting steadily faster each week:

1st week: 1200, 1000, 800 rec to HR 120

2nd week: 1000, 800, 600 rec to HR 120

3rd week: 800, 600, 400 rec to HR 120

4th week: 600, 400, 200 rec to HR 120

5th week: 600, 400, 200 rec 5'

6th+ week: 600, 400, 200 rec 10'

Sat - Short repeats. I don't want to recommend that you go and blast out some 150's at top speed; that may just result in injury for someone transitioning from 1/2 marathon training. 300m repeats should be fine. I suggest 4 x 300m as your bread-and-butter. For the first 5 weeks, 5 min recovery; after that, 10 min.

Sun - OFF. No long runs. Easy relaxed bike if you really want to, but nothing over 10 miles and you don't wanna hammer those quads -- you'll need them fresh for the running workouts!

Lifting - Probably best to lay off the legs pretty soon, so they can be fresh for the speedwork.

Week of 400m, I'd suggest doing a TT for practice, completely laying off the mileage, and doing speedwork as fast as reasonable without risking a quad/hamstring/Achilles injury.

400m TT (instead of the 4 x 300m session)

off

3 x 200m faster than TT pace, 10' rec

off

3 x 200m faster than TT pace, 10' rec

off

400m race

Usain Walmsley wrote:

Yeah the long runs have been getting out of hand- I got roped into helping a friend build up for a quarantine solo marathon. He ran well in 3:03.

I 'd like to stay in touch with LD but no more 16-19 milers. Just 80-90 minutes easy on saturday or sunday from now on. Mentally I just can't go below 25mpw, I think I can consistently stay around 35mpw all summer and stay sane. It's getting hotter, so my need for mileage will go away soon.

Hmm, ok I hear you. If you were to follow what I suggested above, you could do a Sunday long run to stay in touch with your LD. I think you're good with your 80-90 min thinking; probably don't want to go over that. And maybe try to skip the long run the last 2 weeks before the 400m race.

I believe these long runs ideally should be slow slow slow, if you are serious about getting as fast as you can for your upcoming 400m.

This is great stuff @sub-8 I look forward to trying it on and getting after some killer speed. Will report back in 2 weeks on progress for anyone interested in this experiment.

Rock and roll!

Usain Walmsley wrote:

This is great stuff @sub-8 I look forward to trying it on and getting after some killer speed. Will report back in 2 weeks on progress for anyone interested in this experiment.

Yeah, this is neat, I'll be interested to see how things go, too.

Sub-8 seems pretty knowledgeable and I'd agree with his advice. The only thing I'd either emphasize or reiterate that which has already been stated; you need to focus on true speed work, but be CAREFUL. I'm always stunned at how sometimes it seems like distance running and sprinting are practically different sports. If you try to hammer it out on speed, you'll almost certainly get injured. Some of the advice would be to "listen to your body", but even beyond that you need to let your body recover from your speed work more than likely beyond "feel".

I emphasize this because real speed work would likely be a shock to your body, so fatigue to a novice-to-sprinting battered CNS and to some "muscles you didn't know you had" is going to be a big factor in why you need the recovery. Plus, you're likely so used to getting the work in on the roads/in the miles that you're likely to feel like your twiddling your thumbs when you need that recovery time. The answer can't be to put in more speed work. You'll have to discipline yourself there.

I don't know if I missed it and it's been discussed or if you said your doing it or not, but you might want to consider adding in some plyo work to your regiment. Even beyond the value of it to your taining/goals, it can also keep your mind at ease in-between speed sessions that your aren't getting too lazy/twiddling your thumbs. But, like everything, be mindful of intensity/recovery for those, too.

The fact you’re counting mileage whilst training for 400 is a pretty clear indication of where you are going wrong.

Coming from an endurance background, you’ve got more than you need in terms of aerobic development.

I’d suggest one top end speed session a week (5xflying 30m off 5 minutes); one intensive tempo (6x300 off 6); one specific endurance (3xsplit 400 - 1 min between 200s, 15 min between each)

Do weights later in the day from track. To keep you sane from what you’re used to, do some very easy running on the days between track sessions,

You need quality, not quantity.

For anybody interested, I thought I'd share some of my philosophy/reasoning re OP's case. Anybody feel free to agree/disagree/ask questions. Maybe this will stimulate an interesting discussion about speed training etc, while we wait to see how OP does.

Sorry, this will be long-ish as I explain ... I'll try to be succinct.

I agree with blackloud's points, above. For these reasons, I did not suggest that OP include full-on top-end speed work like 30-60m repeats, or true speed endurance stuff like 150 repeats.

That's also why I suggested ditching the long run - that rest day would be important to letting the fast sessions have their effect. However, OP wants to give the 400m training a go for 2 short months, while still keeping in touch with LD, and then get back to more mileage. So, while a long run isn't going to help the 400 effort at all, and may actually hinder the training a bit, I get why OP wants to keep it - given his big-picture outlook.

I figured that OP would not benefit from just jumping in and trying to run fast. Starting with the longer repeats, working them down over time, and getting progressively faster would hopefully allow for an injury-free transition to running fast. Pushing each of those repeats to a good hard effort is, I believe, key.

The long intervals should start with the 1200 a bit slower than mile pace and get faster. The 800 should be at mile pace. By the time OP works down to the 600/400/200, he should be running the 600 around 1:40-1:45, at his estimated 800m fitness. The 400m repeat should be quick/smooth/relaxed, about 4-5 sec slower than 400m fitness (not goal pace, current fitness. The effort is based on feel). The 200 should be nearly all-out 98% effort. Hopefully, OP can hit 26-27, but after the 600 & 400 I don't think it would be terrible if he ran 28.

Regarding the 4 x 300m workout: I figured that 300m is too long for OP to strain something by running too fast too soon, so it's probably safe to push it as hard as he wants. This workout could quite realistically allow someone like OP to run with better speed if done repeatedly over time.

For example, OP has run a 57 400m and wants to go for a 54. 57 pace would be running the 300's in about 43, but who knows where OP is going to be for 300 repeats speed after all the LD training? Let's say he starts out the first session somewhere around 48-50 sec. That's fine - if he pushes it hard during each 4 x 300 session and if he takes the proper full recovery, then within reason he could get them down to 41-43 -- which, if accomplished within the context of the rest of the suggested program, should hopefully get him within 54-57 range.

Of course, 39-40 sec would be better for the 300m repeats but without plyos, 30-60m's, and 150's, this 2-month effort is not going to DEVELOP speed so much as it will allow OP's basic natural speed to emerge, however fast that may be. I am thinking that this approach should be sufficient for a sub-57.

The program I suggested for OP is certainly far from a normal or ideal 400m regimen. The idea was to safely and effectively transition an LD guy to a mid-50's 400m effort - without overloading on the speed work. If he ran 57 last year being unfamiliar with 400m speed training, I figure he can go a bit faster by introducing the workouts I recommended.