Georgetown Low low mileage

Mahavishnu1500 wrote:

Lenny Leonard wrote:

The difference between 45 mpw and 75 mpw is usually just a bunch of additional 3-5 mile runs or an extra mile here or there each day.

Train to run the race, not to have a weekly mileage number.

Any elite 1500m runners ever run that low for more than a couple weeks? I'm sure a few EPO cheats but otherwise elite milers are in the 70-100mpw range most of the year, maybe dipping below for select races/peaks.

Makhloufi runs 40-60ish MAX. He’s certainly suspect of pharmaceutical assistance, but had not technically ever been pinched. Coe was also another low mileage guy- (cue the argument).

He also ran 1:50 in high school, so it's not like 1:49 is some big jump for him. He has clearly improved at the mile and beyond, so good for him, but based on his 5000PR in HS of 15:38 I'd say his improvement in the distances beyond 800, which is the only significant distances he's improved in, are likely because he's running more than he did in high school.

check ittttt wrote:

Yeah, this indoor season he in fact didn’t get faster. Also, I guess you can grow from 45 miles a week but without that foundation from a younger age it’s harder to adapt causing a shorter career. The aerobic work could allow him to do more speed work, getting both systems working well.

Not improving does not mean the training isn't working. He could just be, and probably is, very close at his physical limits and 49.2/1:49/3:39 might just be it for him. As long as he can still run around these times, that's very good.

In addition, he recently started a YouTube channel which he wants to turn into a career which takes a lot of energy and focus away from him. It's unlikely he is ever going to set a PR again with his change of life. If you look at the runners who break through the wall and make it to the real top, like Galen Rupp, they are 100% dedicated and focused on getting faster and don't waste time and energy on activities that detract from the ultimate mission/goal. Brown lost his chance to ever get a 3:35 runner the moment he decided to focus on his YouTube career, and now there is no turning back. Same thing happened to Sage Canaday. Symmonds is the only one who did it right - FIRST he focused on only running and getting as fast as he could, and THEN after he already achieved everything he wanted and could he started with YouTube and a business career.

Liquori eventually improved after starting a buisness, took him like 2 years then bam 3:52 mile bam 13:15

He was doing 70-80 mpw for cross country, and ran a 23:58. However he then dropped to 45 miles a week and lost a lot of his strength, it was a mistake to almost half his mileage for track season.

Jgt11 wrote:

He was doing 70-80 mpw for cross country, and ran a 23:58. However he then dropped to 45 miles a week and lost a lot of his strength, it was a mistake to almost half his mileage for track season.

I agree, but what times did he run? If he ran 1:49-1:51 and 3:39-3:43, it seems whatever he did was good enough to keep his performance level.

If he ran 1:53 and 3:45, then yes, he was nowhere near the level he should have and the reason is loss of stamina/endurance due to reducing the mileage too much. Some really talented people can get away with doing the low mileage, like Brazier and Makloufhi, but the vast majority of runners need to do a lot of aerobic work or they will not be able to hold a strong pace in a mid-d race.

I'll caveat this with my belief that Spencer should be running more mileage. If he was doing great off 70 mpw in Cross, no reason why he can't do a less dramatic drop to 50-60mpw and race at a high level in the 800 and up.

Now onto Brazier. Comparing him to Jakob is just a joke. Brazier is an exceptional 800 runner who has very good speed. He ran 46.91 indoors in January of 2018. I bet he could hit sub-46 with some ease outdoors. Jakob on the other hand is just fast enough to be competitive in the 1500 at the senior level. He is probably an even better prospect at the 5,000. He might struggle to break 49 in the 400 outdoors.

Criticizing Brazier's training at the moment because it's not ideal for the 1500 is dumb. He just won a world title. Of course, he's not training to win the 1500m, he's focused on the 800. Gradually boosting his strength and mileage is working perfectly.

Lewandowski for as good and consistent as he was never broke through to win a medal in the 800. With his speed maybe he was doing *too* much mileage/work for the 800. Can guarantee he was on the higher end of the mileage spectrum than most of the medalists in front of him. His high-volume training at least for him appears to be better suited for the 1500 where he has had better results.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Some really talented people can get away with doing the low mileage, like Brazier and Makloufhi, but the vast majority of runners need to do a lot of aerobic work or they will not be able to hold a strong pace in a mid-d race.

Nobody is "getting away" with low mileage, and it has nothing to do with their level of talent. It has to do with muscle fiber distribution. Runners with very high FT levels (for their event) have to lean heavily on their anaerobic capacity. Too much mileage degrades that capacity, and the improved aerobic capacity isn't enough to compensate.

Reaching his physical limit? He won’t know his “physical limit” until he increases mileage and does longer workouts.

You are right with your assessment of Brazier and Ingebrigtsen, and Ingebrigtsen struggling to break 49 in a FAT 400m.

I did NOT criticize Brazier's training. I said, the reason his 1500m time is not that great and not up to his ultimate potential is because he runs very low mileage. If he ran a lot more mileage, he would undoubtedly improve his 1500m time from his 3:37, but it will also come with a cost and might lower his 800m times by 1-2s. Of course, he is doing the absolute right thing by focusing on the 800m atm and training low mileage for it which worked extremely well for him.

Lewandowski was not a speed guy in 800m, he was a strength guy like Symmonds. He did a lot of fast training for the 800m, but always got smoked by Adam Kszczot on the quick reps (he was the stronger one during threshold work). Think of Lewandowski as 800/1500 guy, and Kszczot as 400/800 guy. That's a big difference. Lewandowski needed that high mileage to get any good at all in the 800m, whereas 40-50 mpw are enough for people like Kszczot, Rudisha and Brazier, who have signifiicantly more 400m speed than Lewandowski (1-2s 400m FAT speed becomes quite significant on that elite level).

Ingebrigtsen is a current 1500/5000 guy, and later will be a 5000/10000 or even higher guy, that's why he gets destroyed in 1500m sprint finishes by Lewandowski. In an 800m, Lewandowski was the one who got passed on the home straight and yes, often was the poor 4th place guy.

What I want to say - while Rudisha, Kszczot, etc get away with their 30-50 mpw because they are clear 400/800 guys with lots of FT fibers, the only way someone like Lewandowski or Ingebrigtsen get any good at all in any race is by running high mileage since they come from the strength side. So saying Lewandowski could have been faster had he run 70 mpw instead of 100-110 mpw in base phase and 60 mpw instead of 85 mpw during competition is probably not right. Symmonds probably falls between these two extreme spectrums, but still more on the strength side, with 75 mpw during base phase and ~65 during competition.

800 dude wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Some really talented people can get away with doing the low mileage, like Brazier and Makloufhi, but the vast majority of runners need to do a lot of aerobic work or they will not be able to hold a strong pace in a mid-d race.

Nobody is "getting away" with low mileage, and it has nothing to do with their level of talent. It has to do with muscle fiber distribution. Runners with very high FT levels (for their event) have to lean heavily on their anaerobic capacity. Too much mileage degrades that capacity, and the improved aerobic capacity isn't enough to compensate.

That explanation is correct, "getting away" was more meant like that if both type of runners run low mileage (~40 mpw), only the FT guys will perform well in races.

Rudisha, Kszscot, and any other 400/800 types thrive on running 30-50 mpw during competition. They have a lot of FT fibers and natural speed.

Symmonds, Lewandowski, and other 800/1500 types need higher mileage in base training and competition. They thrive of their aerobic strength and their bodies got the capacity to withstand high mileage training, they are also more efficient at using fat as fuel.

Train either one group with too much mileage, or one with too little, and they will not perform to their optimum. This is nothing new, even back in the days Coe was known for low mileage and Covett/Snell for high mileage, yet all of them were very strong mid-d runners.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

So saying Lewandowski could have been faster had he run 70 mpw instead of 100-110 mpw in base phase and 60 mpw instead of 85 mpw during competition is probably not right.

We really don't know. What we do know is there have been guys like Symmonds/Clayton Murphy with similar 400 PBs who were a) faster in the 800 b) ran lower mileage c) couldn't match him in the 1500. I expect Bryce Hoppel to join this camp soon, too. I'm not sure Lewandowski's system ideally harnessed his speed for the 800 like it has for the 1500.

Spencer ran 3:39/1:49 last year but he ran those times early spring. He probably had a nice 3 week block of good aerobic/ strength workouts after indoors which is why he was able to run quick early but then he transitioned more into speed workouts and little to no aerobic workouts which ultimately resulted in a bad last month of races. 70+ mile weeks are pretty much required to survive multiple rounds at USA’s.

I was going to actually point out something that you pointed out; his 400m time was faster in high school. I don't think he's broken 50 on a relay in years, let alone even run an open 400m.

He did not 'recently' start a youtube channel. He's had it for like 4 years. His best three seasons so far was when he was consistently making content on his channel. Sure, having a youtube channel wouldn't help Rupp or Kipchoge get faster, but Spencer's personality and age make it a different scenario. If anything, having that channel as a place to talk about whats going on in his running life and to have people to 'show off' to, in a way, is probably beneficial for him.

Additionally, for an athlete of Spencer's level, having a youtube channel is a huge positive for his running career. He's at a level where he could pick up a low level contract with a group like Tinman, NJNY, among others. His PRs are better than a number of athletes who got sponsored coming out of college in those groups. BUT, he also has a youtube channel with 45k subscribers. Not a massive amount, but a pretty loyal following, many of which are high school or early college aged who will likely buy whatever shoe Spencer recommends (his own merch sold out pretty quick).

Now don't mistake me as a huge fanboy. I was pretty critical of his training earlier and I don't watch every single one of his videos, but get your facts straight Philly boy.

Makh is an EPO doper. Nobody clean runs 3:35 or faster off less than 65 mpw

What 800 dude said. Some of you should try going to a USTFCCCA education clinic.

Believe it or not, there are other training methods that can work for some aside from 120 mpw of slow jogging.

Equally, I'm no big Spencer fanboy and find his videos a bit repetitive. He does have tens of thousands of subscribers/followers though

His Youtube channel will certainly only benefit his career. He has far higher visibility and social media presence than any other 3:39 guy out there. and will make more money as a result of it.

If he could take 6 months to build a proper base and train with a good group I don't think 3:37 is out of the question in the next 12 months.

Snell never ran 140 miles in one week. He told me he only ever ran 100 miles per week during one of his base building periods. That was accomplished with twice daily sessions. He ran about 30 to 40 miles per week when racing. Lydiard's runners always dropped mileage when peaking for big competitions. Lydiard believed tired legs are slow legs. Snell said that He did not like that Lydiard told people he ran all that mileage. He knew Lydiard did it to get the point across that people need to run more, not that they needed to specifically run a particular mileage. He also said that he did not like that Lydiard would say that they did not count there easy morning jogs in their mileage counts. Snell said "we counted every step."