Marcus says that 200s after a tempo are USELESS. Completely contradicts TINMAN training

If what you are describing here is accurate, then he is a moron.

I know that Bakken for example never did combo workouts when he did threshold sessions as he believed it would dilute the training effect, but Marcus isn't even making that argument.

Jesus, what a moron.

Here is the link to the podcast. He tweeted it a while ago but he said he stands by it 100%.

https://blog.finalsurge.com/final-surge-podcast-episode-150-jonathan-marcus/

I've always wondered what his coaching background is. Has he had any long term athletes that stick by him? I understand being an extremist gets more clicks and makes him feel like a coaching genious but it makes him come across as ridiculous and insecure.

Is he serious? wrote:

If what you are describing here is accurate, then he is a moron.

I know that Bakken for example never did combo workouts when he did threshold sessions as he believed it would dilute the training effect, but Marcus isn't even making that argument.

Jesus, what a moron.

I follow my tempo sessions with 5x200 early in the season and progress down to 5x150 before competition phase starts, then 5x100 in competition phase. I always considered this to be finishing speed training. Not so much for developing speed but for working on the ability to accelerate at the end of a race when I am tired physically and mentally.

I am in no way a fan of Jmar, but hey does make the distinction that 200s after a workout to build PURE speed is useless and I would tend to agree with that, if your intention is to try to improve your max velocity.

It is impossible to teach an athlete to ‘run fast when tired.’

The very nature of being in a state of fatigue negates the ability to run fast — the skill of speed is only learned when fresh.

Therefore, doing a tempo run followed by ‘fast’ 200s is, in fact, a useless exercise.

============+++++++++++++++++++++++++++==============

Then don't do your tempos so hard.

Han Solo wrote:

I am in no way a fan of Jmar, but hey does make the distinction that 200s after a workout to build PURE speed is useless and I would tend to agree with that, if your intention is to try to improve your max velocity.

Yes, I would agree with that too. However he said it is a useless exercise which I disagree with. He was also asked during the podcast if he would change the word useless after thinking about it and he said no.

Han Solo wrote:

I am in no way a fan of Jmar, but hey does make the distinction that 200s after a workout to build PURE speed is useless and I would tend to agree with that, if your intention is to try to improve your max velocity.

This. Almost two different arguments.

If a coach says, "Of course we work on speed. We do 200s after easy days and tempos," then that coach is really not developing top end speed.

On his own podcast, Jon discussed this idea further and said that he often has his athletes do these short, often alactic intervals BEFORE a tempo run or long intervals. Still a combined workout, but I would imagine most distance coaches have a learned bias that this would discount the effect of the tempo run. Then the point becomes: If doing speed before a tempo run weakens the endurance benefit, then why do we not accept that doing tempo before speed weakens the speed benefit?

I believe there is room in a training program for both approaches based on the strengths and needs of the athlete.

UmbrellaMans wrote:

https://twitter.com/jmarpdx/status/1164349604491431936?s=21

"Speed" can mean different things, and I think he's conflating different notions of speed, here. Of course you wouldn't train top end sprint speed by throwing down some 200s after a tempo run. But that isn't really the point. The point is to train the kind of functional speed that a distance runner uses.

If anyone anywhere is doing tempos followed by short repeats because they think it will improve their 100m PR, then I guess Jon's advice is good for whoever that person is. The workout isn't going to make you faster in the sense of improving your top end speed. But for the rest of us who just want to win distance races, it's a good workout.

I don't who Jonathan Marcus has coached but given Tinman's recent success I'd say he knows what he's doing. In a race where you need a final kick you need to run fast when tired so doing fast runs at the end of a hard run is going to improve your ability to do that. This is actually a different thing than building pure speed so the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. On the topic of building pure speed, as opposed to being able to access the speed you have when exhausted, I'd side with Lydiard who would likely have told you that 200s are too far to develop speed. But I would agree that if you're looking to work purely on speed you want to be fresh so you get maximum leg turnover but that there are times when running fast and tired can be very useful.

Lets break the tweet down

Decoding the tweet:

It is impossible to teach an athlete to ‘run fast when tired.’

---A bit of a face palm here. This is the entire point of training. To run as fast as you can when you are tired. What he probably means is that you cannot develop your top end speed while tired, which is true. However for a guy always talking about how being precise matters, he is not very precise in this instance.

The very nature of being in a state of fatigue negates the ability to run fast — the skill of speed is only learned when fresh.

---He's not wrong

Therefore, doing a tempo run followed by ‘fast’ 200s is, in fact, a useless exercise.

---Yes, it's useless for developing your top end speed. It's not useless for honing one of the other hundreds of parameters that goes into running. This statement as written is stupid.

The more you dig into exercise science the more it should become clear that even the experts know absolutely nothing in terms of the entire system. Just take one look at this metabolic pathways map. We focus on VO2 and Lactate threshold because those are parameters we can measure in the lab. But if you study the map you can see just how many processes and feedback loops go on in the entire biochemical process. Saying running 200s after a tempo does or doesn't do something just proves you only think you know what you are talking about. The true answer is we don't know what they do, but if people seem to be having success or failure with them, that should sway our opinion when we consider the art of training.

http://www.metabolic-pathway.com/fullMap.html

UmbrellaMans wrote:

Han Solo wrote:

I am in no way a fan of Jmar, but hey does make the distinction that 200s after a workout to build PURE speed is useless and I would tend to agree with that, if your intention is to try to improve your max velocity.

Yes, I would agree with that too. However he said it is a useless exercise which I disagree with. He was also asked during the podcast if he would change the word useless after thinking about it and he said no.

How do fast finishers finish so fast? They practice finishing fast, that's how.

Maybe Marcus get tunnel vision about stuff? Slow twitchers can run pretty much flat out at the end of a hard race. Those with more fast twitch find this more difficult. So it's not a one size fits all scenario. Tinman would know this.

Doesn't this depend on what sort of tempo? If it's 10-15 seconds per mile slower than 10k pace, and the runner is fresh to start, then it should not be super taxing on the muscles. I like doing a few 200s after such a run. They feel good. If they don't feel good then the tempo was too fast, or I was not recovered and ready for a workout day.

...and how fast are the 200s. I do them fast but not all out. More like a long stride, to focus on form, mobility, bounce. Don't even need a watch. Feel good while running fast.

donairs wrote:

Doesn't this depend on what sort of tempo? If it's 10-15 seconds per mile slower than 10k pace, and the runner is fresh to start, then it should not be super taxing on the muscles. I like doing a few 200s after such a run. They feel good. If they don't feel good then the tempo was too fast, or I was not recovered and ready for a workout day.

You can do 200s at mile or 800 pace with full 200m jog rest after ANY workout. I've done them plenty of time after CV, tempos and even faster-than-CV workouts and they always work. In the beginning of a season my speed during the 800s might only be 35, but later they get down to 29-30 while still being relaxed. Doing them week after week improves leg strength and mechanics.

My ability to close races was insane. I closed a PR 5k in 16:10 where I was out of breath 1 mile in a 59s 400m and another race in 16:25 with a 2:57 1k, passing the leader who had a big gap the whole race.

Now I'm fast-twitch so that alone might be the reason for my strong finish, but I'm sure the 200s on tired legs/heavily used aerobic system have at least some kind of effect.

As for JMar, him and Magness spent at least a dozen podcasts already to criticize guys like Tinman, Daniels etc and make fun of their training methods. Can't take these guys seriously when they are together, once they get going on a rant it's hard to keep listening.

donairs wrote:

...and how fast are the 200s. I do them fast but not all out. More like a long stride, to focus on form, mobility, bounce. Don't even need a watch. Feel good while running fast.

That's good! Tinman says mile-pace, later up to 800m pace, and highly recommends progression. For example for a typical LR 16:00 5k/2:00 800 runner, in early season maybe 35,34,34,33, then mid-season 33,32,31,30 and at the end 32,31,30,30,29,29. Could even spike up for the last reps. The progression happens natural, meaning at same effort you are just faster due to the training.

Tinman’s CV’s and Tempos (if run correctly) don’t leave you feeling exhauted....200’s at mile pace feel easy afterwards.

I actually think Tinman's athlete's have greatly underperformed. Any coach with some knowledge should be able to see tons of success by taking 10-15 top runners out of college without families to take care of and having them training and living together. But I would say their results have been very hit and miss - just like everyone else. I used to think Tom was a coaching genius but now I realize he just thinks he knows more than everyone else when he is actually just an average coach. I don't mean to knock on him, he is probably a great guy, but coaches with a ton of confidence seem to be very good at convincing people that their way is best.