Just wondering if someone who just OTQs without doping then begins a doping regime like some of the elites have been accused of, will that person then be say in the top 10 or 20% of Olympic marathon athletes? Tyler Hamilton said doping in cycling was the difference between back of the pack and front, wondering if it’s the same in running.
You can think of some examples. Probably OTQ ~2:18:xx would not go to internationally competitive. I would guess you have to at least make the European circuit clean to compete at the top with drugs. Something closer to 2:09-10 clean to world class (plus or minus 2:05, reliably) dirty.
Mo Farah in 2008 Olympics : did not make it out of the 5 000m heat
Mo Farah in 2009: 7th of the 5000m
Mo Farah in 2012: Double olympic champion 5 000 and 10 000m
Depends what your natural hematocrit and testosterone level is
If you look at Bekele's turnover, back kick and physique, he is obviously extremely talented. His VO2 max is certainly well north of 80 and his top-end speed is significantly faster than someone like Craig Virgin who ran 27:29.
With or without doping I can not see him running any slower than 26:30.
Yes it will only give you a few minutes. Whether 2, 3, or 4, who knows?
There was a girl from a smaller country that got busted for EPO. Went from 16:20's one summer to 15:20's the next summer, and the next spring got busted for EPO. She could have naturally progressed to 16 flat realistically, but I think a lot of that 15:20 was due to her starting onEPO that year.
So for a guy, I imagine it could be like taking a 13:50's guy, and then he becomes a sub 13:20 guy the next year. And someone running 12:40's on EPO could have probably naturally been a 13:10 type guy.
Circa six seconds/km, based on experience and research.
[quote][b]
33 wrote:
I would guess you have to at least make the European circuit clean to compete at the top with drugs..
Said Aouita disagrees
My PRs are 18:40 with no EPO and 16:15 with EPO. I was not about to win any national titles and am only an experiment of one, but that's at least a data point.
The link below is to an Outside Magazine article from a number of years ago about the impact of performance enhancing drugs on a weekend warrior. The takeaway for me after reading this article was that the PED drugs the author took allowed him to recover from hard training faster which then allowed him to string together workouts that would otherwise not be possible to do without more rest. This ability to recover quickly probably came from the HGH the author was taking. Not to glorify taking illegal PEDs, but the effect of HGH is basically like being back in HS or College when you could string together hard days without injury. EPO had a different effect in that it artificially increases the amount of oxygen carrying cells in blood which I guess would increase Max VO2 as the same volume of blood would carry more oxygen. I've never used any PED and certainly won't start at this point myself
Quite a bit wrote:
There was a girl from a smaller country that got busted for EPO. Went from 16:20's one summer to 15:20's the next summer, and the next spring got busted for EPO. She could have naturally progressed to 16 flat realistically, but I think a lot of that 15:20 was due to her starting onEPO that year.
So for a guy, I imagine it could be like taking a 13:50's guy, and then he becomes a sub 13:20 guy the next year. And someone running 12:40's on EPO could have probably naturally been a 13:10 type guy.
There is no way a guy, assuming he already trained effectively, is going to improve from 13:50 to 13:20 by doping. There is significant difference in top end speed needed to run those times.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Quite a bit wrote:
There was a girl from a smaller country that got busted for EPO. Went from 16:20's one summer to 15:20's the next summer, and the next spring got busted for EPO. She could have naturally progressed to 16 flat realistically, but I think a lot of that 15:20 was due to her starting onEPO that year.
So for a guy, I imagine it could be like taking a 13:50's guy, and then he becomes a sub 13:20 guy the next year. And someone running 12:40's on EPO could have probably naturally been a 13:10 type guy.
There is no way a guy, assuming he already trained effectively, is going to improve from 13:50 to 13:20 by doping. There is significant difference in top end speed needed to run those times.
13:20 is only 4:18 per 1600, 13:50 is about 4:27. You think 4:18 requires a ton of speed? Not really... Any guy that runs 13:50 can run under 4:10 in a mile, probably more like 4:05, with EPO they don't have to slow down that much to keep going given their increased red blood cell count, so a 4:18 is smooth and they can sustain for a 5k.
Making a runner faster is much more complicated than making a cyclist faster. Here's why:
There was a thread yesterday asking why cyclists are typically pretty good at sprinting but runners are not. The answer lied in economy: the mechanics of a bike largely make everyone ride the same way, there are not different forms. Now imagine the variety of running styles. That's an extra component in running that isn't there in cycling.
So in running and cycling alike, you have your engine, which is basically measured with VO2max. But in running you have to convert that engine into motion, which is where economy comes in. Paula Radcliffes engine got smaller over the course of her career, but her economy improved and she became faster.
So running is not as linear as cycling when it comes to doping effects. You could dope someone to the gills and they could be naturally talented, but if they run down the street like a wiggly goober they are wasting all that horsepower.
Doping is only part of the equation.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Quite a bit wrote:
There was a girl from a smaller country that got busted for EPO. Went from 16:20's one summer to 15:20's the next summer, and the next spring got busted for EPO. She could have naturally progressed to 16 flat realistically, but I think a lot of that 15:20 was due to her starting onEPO that year.
So for a guy, I imagine it could be like taking a 13:50's guy, and then he becomes a sub 13:20 guy the next year. And someone running 12:40's on EPO could have probably naturally been a 13:10 type guy.
There is no way a guy, assuming he already trained effectively, is going to improve from 13:50 to 13:20 by doping. There is significant difference in top end speed needed to run those times.
Yeah but someone can already have the top end speed but lack the aerobic capacity. You’re a smart guy, maybe you realized that after posting or it just slipped your mind altogether?
Anyway, as said earlier it has a different effect depending on ones baseline and then how high a hct they are willing to risk.
the option wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
There is no way a guy, assuming he already trained effectively, is going to improve from 13:50 to 13:20 by doping. There is significant difference in top end speed needed to run those times.
Yeah but someone can already have the top end speed but lack the aerobic capacity. You’re a smart guy, maybe you realized that after posting or it just slipped your mind altogether?
Anyway, as said earlier it has a different effect depending on ones baseline and then how high a hct they are willing to risk.
Do PEDs affect VO2 max or are you referring to blood doping?
Assuming you think Bekele was cheating when he ran 26:17, how fast he would have run if he wasn't? As I posted before, he is obviously extremely talented.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
the option wrote:
Yeah but someone can already have the top end speed but lack the aerobic capacity. You’re a smart guy, maybe you realized that after posting or it just slipped your mind altogether?
Anyway, as said earlier it has a different effect depending on ones baseline and then how high a hct they are willing to risk.
Do PEDs affect VO2 max or are you referring to blood doping?
Assuming you think Bekele was cheating when he ran 26:17, how fast he would have run if he wasn't? As I posted before, he is obviously extremely talented.
Your answer lies in the definition of Vo2max and what EPO does.
I believe the Outside article from a few years ago included various tests.
Alan
There's an old article from RW with an interview with Eddy Hellebuyck. He talks about getting to the last 10k of a marathon and feeling like he just started.
https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a22000371/the-confessions-of-eddy-hellebuyck/