Yeah, if you ignore all the running posts and cherry pick troll threads that will obviously anger you, then that's entirely your problem. Idiots. I also like how they back up their claims of racism and misogyny with a single quote. On a site with millions of threads.
They don’t actually want to change
1) the site is one big dumpster fire of sexism and mean spirited people, though I would argue against the racism claim. Unfortunately, racism is now used as a catch-all moniker to include anything about anyone that they are offended by. As a minority, I'm pretty familiar with racism, and I don't see it here. Calling a Kenyan a doper and then that being claimed as a racist comment is incorrect. He/she just happens to be black.
2) a liberal rag like Outside is just looking for something to get triggered about
Both winners!
Korean American wrote:
1) the site is one big dumpster fire of sexism and mean spirited people, though I would argue against the racism claim. Unfortunately, racism is now used as a catch-all moniker to include anything about anyone that they are offended by. As a minority, I'm pretty familiar with racism, and I don't see it here. Calling a Kenyan a doper and then that being claimed as a racist comment is incorrect. He/she just happens to be black.
2) a liberal rag like Outside is just looking for something to get triggered about
Both winners!
I've been on the boards for 15+ years. You can't deny that there are examples of all of the above.
As for the racism, it is very much skewed bias that an athlete of African descent is much more quickly presumed to be doping (which, IMO, I really don't care if someone dopes or not). There is 100% a problem with much of the running community's views on a runner's character based on their country of origin. That's racism, buddy.
All that considered though, I appreciate what the Oiselle team is doing in creating their own space to compete with LRC. It doesn't seem all that attractive to me, and I don't know how they plan to moderate it in order to avoid some of the pitfalls of a wide-open forum.
I've been hanging around here since 07' or 08' and well....The article was pretty accurate. Sorry if this offends you basement dwellers.
One thing I want to address from the article because I see it get brought up all the time, is the whole concept of anonymity on the internet. The article says:
The fact that message board posters can remain anonymous is arguably one of the more contentious aspects of the platform. In the statement announcing updates to the message boards earlier this week, LetsRun wrote that allowing posters to retain their anonymity “allows for a more honest discussion.” Presumably, anonymity would also make it easier for potential whistleblowers to call out misdeeds, whether it’s exposing a serial race cheater, or an abusive coach.
By the same token, however, there’s an obvious downside when people don’t have to be held accountable for what they say in a public forum. What if those anonymous allegations of cheating are not true? Likewise, the adult men sulking in their mother’s basements would probably be less inclined to troll the Mary Cains of the world if they actually had to own up to it.
I just think the discussion is being framed in a pretty ridiculous way. It's pretending like LetsRun.com is some outlier because users can post anonymously. The whole discussion about registration is one thing, but the fact is on most online forums, you are anonymous. I post on Reddit all the time and am 100% anonymous; no one will ever know who I am. All you need to sign up and start posting is a username. They make you input an email address, but you don't have to verify it to post so it doesn't even need to be a real email. Just as a test I signed up with an account under the email
fake123@fake.comand was able to register and post. Took about 30 seconds.
I realize that a lot of people post under their real names on Twitter (although you can make fake names there too), but most of the internet isn't like that and that is okay. I just don't like the way Outside is framing this discussion in the article. Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
Can't believe that the trash outlet of Outside Online would use Bergensen of Oiselle as their source. This is the same Bergensen of Oiselle that stole photos of Nike athletes and photoshopped on her logo on them. This is the same Bergensen of Oiselle that employs the highly sexist Kelly Roberts and both of them were actively encouraging banditing of races. And then the Outside Online article links to her "Women's Running" website as part of the blurb from Bergensen. Isn't this highly sexist of Bergensen? To have a website that is inherently sexist in name and function that excludes men and other genders? And reading that "Women's Running" front page, the headlines look right out of Runner's World, and that is not a compliment. Right now it does articles for recipes for making sauces and oatmeal along with "13 Beauty Products for Super Active Women by Jen Ator". "Women's Running" is so sexist, I'm going to have to ask them for advice on how I, too, can be more sexist to up my "misogyny". Bergensen is a joke.
https://www.womensrunning.com/While the conundrum of the LetsRun boards isn’t likely to be resolved any time soon, Bergesen says that she is encouraged that women in running are increasingly taking matters into their own hands, by creating their own media to re-direct the narrative of their sport.
"Johnson cited pro-Russia propaganda as the kind of thing that LetsRun’s new regulations are hoping to curb. "
rojo is too young to remember the Cold War. He must also be politically naive if he thinks that anti-Russian propaganda is a good thing?
It's political posturing from people looking to get a career advantage.
We, the posters control the content of the message board for the most part.
As bad as it is, the racist and misogynist posts shed a light onto what's going in people's minds that you otherwise would not know.
I kind of feel enlightened.
Personal comments on public figures is bad. Tough to control and keep the same open feel of the board.
It's not Letsrun that is bad, it's that there are bad people in the world who like to talk smack while hiding that ruin things.
Soprano wrote:
Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
so basically it's okay because, "everyone else is doing it!"
tank girl wrote:
so basically it's okay because, "everyone else is doing it!"
Why don't you ask Bergensen about her highly sexist website and sponsorship?
Martin Fritz Huber is one of the reasons why Outside online is pretty useless.
He writes about people he knows and adores like Jim Walmsley.
Outside online also removed comments years ago. I guess they got tired of people pointing out how false their articles were.
https://www.outsideonline.com/2342051/how-i-learned-to-care-about-ultrarunning-utmb
tank girl wrote:
Soprano wrote:
Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
so basically it's okay because, "everyone else is doing it!"
Do you think that anonymity is bad?
Soprano wrote:
One thing I want to address from the article because I see it get brought up all the time, is the whole concept of anonymity on the internet. The article says:
The fact that message board posters can remain anonymous is arguably one of the more contentious aspects of the platform. In the statement announcing updates to the message boards earlier this week, LetsRun wrote that allowing posters to retain their anonymity “allows for a more honest discussion.” Presumably, anonymity would also make it easier for potential whistleblowers to call out misdeeds, whether it’s exposing a serial race cheater, or an abusive coach.
By the same token, however, there’s an obvious downside when people don’t have to be held accountable for what they say in a public forum. What if those anonymous allegations of cheating are not true? Likewise, the adult men sulking in their mother’s basements would probably be less inclined to troll the Mary Cains of the world if they actually had to own up to it.
I just think the discussion is being framed in a pretty ridiculous way. It's pretending like LetsRun.com is some outlier because users can post anonymously. The whole discussion about registration is one thing, but the fact is on most online forums, you are anonymous. I post on Reddit all the time and am 100% anonymous; no one will ever know who I am. All you need to sign up and start posting is a username. They make you input an email address, but you don't have to verify it to post so it doesn't even need to be a real email. Just as a test I signed up with an account under the email
fake123@fake.comand was able to register and post. Took about 30 seconds.
I realize that a lot of people post under their real names on Twitter (although you can make fake names there too), but most of the internet isn't like that and that is okay. I just don't like the way Outside is framing this discussion in the article. Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
I have been thinking about the reddit angle. Why do anonymous usernames work over there? Here are my insights:
1. Everyone on reddit has to create an account to post. Yes, you can create multiple accounts very quickly, but that is covered in point #2.
2. The things new reddit accounts can do are significantly restricted. It makes it so you can't post frequently, often needing 10+ minutes between posts. Some forums don't even allow new accounts to post. So in theory you could create many reddit accounts to spam, but the investment of energy to get allow each account to become fully functional deters people from doing this. People may have multiple accounts, but in practice each account is one they hold onto for a while. People's tendency to spam and hide behind multiple usernames is greatly diminished. The continuity of accounts, and the ability to see the type of things each account is posting from the moment it was created. Those two things enforce a type of increased accountability that is pretty ingenius from a site that allows anonymous posting. Reddit had a problem with user accountability and they have largely solved it, because they thought about how to fix it and they did it.
3. Reddit has upvoting and downvoting. Each post can be upvoted or downvoted by users, and a comment's vote total determines how visible it is. In theory, downvoting is meant to be reserved for things that don't contribute to the conversation. In practice, the downvote button also serves to turn the volume down on comments that are problematic. On letsrun, every comment in every thread receives equal attention.
4. Reddit has mods for each subreddit. There is an auto-mod function, but subreddits function so well as ecosystems because of active mods. There is so much more moderation there. Each subreddit has a few devoted moderators that enforce the standards of that particular subreddit, not reddit as a whole. There are also reddit-wide rules that moderators enforce.
In summary, reddit has the same types of issues as letsrun, but they have a much more sophisticated system for dealing with them, one that admits they are a problem. I find that lazy tech companies hide behind freedom/lack of censorship so they can avoid dealing with real, solvable issues.
reddit user wrote:
Soprano wrote:
One thing I want to address from the article because I see it get brought up all the time, is the whole concept of anonymity on the internet. The article says:
I just think the discussion is being framed in a pretty ridiculous way. It's pretending like LetsRun.com is some outlier because users can post anonymously. The whole discussion about registration is one thing, but the fact is on most online forums, you are anonymous. I post on Reddit all the time and am 100% anonymous; no one will ever know who I am. All you need to sign up and start posting is a username. They make you input an email address, but you don't have to verify it to post so it doesn't even need to be a real email. Just as a test I signed up with an account under the email
fake123@fake.comand was able to register and post. Took about 30 seconds.
I realize that a lot of people post under their real names on Twitter (although you can make fake names there too), but most of the internet isn't like that and that is okay. I just don't like the way Outside is framing this discussion in the article. Anonymity is actually the standard with online forums, not the exception.
I have been thinking about the reddit angle. Why do anonymous usernames work over there? Here are my insights:
1. Everyone on reddit has to create an account to post. Yes, you can create multiple accounts very quickly, but that is covered in point #2.
2. The things new reddit accounts can do are significantly restricted. It makes it so you can't post frequently, often needing 10+ minutes between posts. Some forums don't even allow new accounts to post. So in theory you could create many reddit accounts to spam, but the investment of energy to get allow each account to become fully functional deters people from doing this. People may have multiple accounts, but in practice each account is one they hold onto for a while. People's tendency to spam and hide behind multiple usernames is greatly diminished. The continuity of accounts, and the ability to see the type of things each account is posting from the moment it was created. Those two things enforce a type of increased accountability that is pretty ingenius from a site that allows anonymous posting. Reddit had a problem with user accountability and they have largely solved it, because they thought about how to fix it and they did it.
3. Reddit has upvoting and downvoting. Each post can be upvoted or downvoted by users, and a comment's vote total determines how visible it is. In theory, downvoting is meant to be reserved for things that don't contribute to the conversation. In practice, the downvote button also serves to turn the volume down on comments that are problematic. On letsrun, every comment in every thread receives equal attention.
4. Reddit has mods for each subreddit. There is an auto-mod function, but subreddits function so well as ecosystems because of active mods. There is so much more moderation there. Each subreddit has a few devoted moderators that enforce the standards of that particular subreddit, not reddit as a whole. There are also reddit-wide rules that moderators enforce.
In summary, reddit has the same types of issues as letsrun, but they have a much more sophisticated system for dealing with them, one that admits they are a problem. I find that lazy tech companies hide behind freedom/lack of censorship so they can avoid dealing with real, solvable issues.
This is a very thorough and articulate response. The Brojos, Soprano, and Gault will dismiss it outright.
Star wrote:
As bad as it is, the racist and misogynist posts shed a light onto what's going in people's minds that you otherwise would not know.
I kind of feel enlightened.
I agree. As a university professor who spends all day interacting with faculty, staff, and students who are totally woke, I find the LR message board highly enlightening.
Bergesen is a Hypocrite wrote:
And then the Outside Online article links to her "Women's Running" website as part of the blurb from Bergensen. Isn't this highly sexist of Bergensen? To have a website that is inherently sexist in name and function that excludes men and other genders? And reading that "Women's Running" front page, the headlines look right out of Runner's World, and that is not a compliment. Right now it does articles for recipes for making sauces and oatmeal along with "13 Beauty Products for Super Active Women by Jen Ator". "Women's Running" is so sexist, I'm going to have to ask them for advice on how I, too, can be more sexist to up my "misogyny".
Yeah, I'm a female and took a look at that website and perceived it as sexist. Honestly, I didn't make it past the front page, which linked to recipes, diet advice, and beauty routines as if that is all women are interested in. I think letsrun is the best running website out there. It's the website I go to to stay up to date on all running related. Here, I can read about current races all over the world and I have found extremely helpful information on the message boards.
tank girl wrote:
reddit user wrote:
In summary, reddit has the same types of issues as letsrun, but they have a much more sophisticated system for dealing with them, one that admits they are a problem. I find that lazy tech companies hide behind freedom/lack of censorship so they can avoid dealing with real, solvable issues.
This is a very thorough and articulate response. The Brojos, Soprano, and Gault will dismiss it outright.
This is what is most frustrating about it. The Brojos claims that they do not want this type of content, but they refuse to listen to people who tell them that there are actually ways to greatly improve these issues. I suspect they continue to host this content, not because they are lazy, but because they are sympathetic to the viewpoints that are expressed. Rojo in particular.
alt-right posts wrote:
This is what is most frustrating about it. The Brojos claims that they do not want this type of content, but they refuse to listen to people who tell them that there are actually ways to greatly improve these issues. I suspect they continue to host this content, not because they are lazy, but because they are sympathetic to the viewpoints that are expressed. Rojo in particular.
You are so very wrong. On Reddit, you cannot talk about transgender men competing in women's races without bending over backwards to say how great you think they are. If you were to talk like how we do on LRC about how it is physically unfair for a transgender man to compete with women who don't have the genetic and physical averages not the PEDs they are allowed, then you get banned in Reddit. You fail to see that Reddit is tranny of the majority, and don't get me started with the stupid and hypocritical political posts that get upvoted on Reddit. You need to get your head out of your Reddit a-hole.