Low mileage 400/800 training

Here are my past 2 weeks of training:

1/13/20-1/19/20

1/13 - 6x150, 4x200, 4x200, 6x150

The 150m reps alternated between 32 and 36 sec 200 pace, the 200s were all at 32 sec pace. The rests for the 150s were a 50m walk. The rest for 200s was a 100m jog. I took about 3 min jog between sets.

1/14 - 4.55 miles steady

1/15 - 4x400 @ 75, 2x800 @ 3 min, 1x200 @ 28

Rest between 400s was 2 min, rest between 800s was 40 seconds

1/16 - 40 minutes steady, 6x flying 30

1/17 - 55 minutes easy

1/18, 1/19 - off ( I work 13 hour shifts on weekends and dont really have time to run)

1/20/20-1/26/20

1/20 - 4.73 miles, steady

1/21 - 5x600 @ 2:20, 4x 8 sec hill sprint, 1x200 @ 27

The rest between the 600s was 30 seconds. I took about 2 minutes each between the hill reps

1/22 - 4.62 miles, steady

1/23 - 300, 6x150, 300, 4x200, 4x200

The 300s were at 2 flat pace, with a 2 min jog after, the 150s were alternating paces between 32 sec 200 and 36 sec 200s, and the 200s alternated between the same paces, with the last 2 being closer to 27 (on purpose). They 150s had a 50m walk in between and the 200s had a 100m jog in between

1/24 - 6.36 miles steady

1/25 - 3.91, easy (was supposed to be off but a friend wanted to run)

1/26 - off

Feeling pretty good after these two weeks, besides some ankle pain. Did my last 200 this thursday at about 25, and felt pretty good doing it. I'm experimenting once a week with lactate threshold reps as an "easier" workout that still allows for quality mileage. I also like to use them as a "rest" between different intervals at different paces.

Training for week of 1/26-2/1:

1/26: Off

1/27: 10x100, 3x250, 3x250, 4x150

100s were at 14,15,16 alternating with a 50 meter walk in between, the 250s were at 32 second pace with a 75 meter walk in between, and the 150s alternated between 23 and 27 with a 50 meter walk in between. 400 meter jog between each set. 250s started to suck in the 2nd set, I think because of the short rest. The walk only took about a minute.

1/28: 42 minutes easy, legs were pretty tired

1/29: 4x800 @ 3:10 with 40 second rest in between.

Felt terrible during this, which was surprising because it should've been a relatively easy workout. I was supposed to do 4x60 meter hill sprints after but I was exhausted. It was pretty hot that day and i think i was still tired from mondays workout.

1/30: 42 minutes steady. 6x100 strides, relatively quick.

Felt way better this day.

1/31: off

2/1: 7 miles, easy. Around 9 minute pace

Monday was a tough workout, and I dont think I recovered from it until thursday, so it affected a lot of my week. But I'm still feeling good about the training. I'm planning on doing a 1500 time trial in a few weeks, and a 400 on the same day. Maybe in early March.

Week of 2/3 - 2/9:

2/3: 60 min run around 8-8:30 pace

2/4: 45 min run, 8:30 pace

2/5: warm-up, 5x600 @ 2:13-2:15 with a 30 second rest in between. 2 minute jog, then 2x200 @ 30. Cool down

2/6:

A.M. - 1 mile easy, 6x100 stride

P.M. - 40 min run, around 830 pace

2/7: warm up. 300 @ 48, 3 min jog, 6x100 @ 15-16 w/ 50 meter walk in between, 3 min jog, 6x100 @ alternate 18,16,14 with 50m walk between, 4 min jog, 4x200 @ 31-32, 100m wall in between, 4 min jog, 4x200 @ 36, 32, 32, 28 with 100m walk between, 3 min jog, 300 @ 47. Cool down

2/8: off

2/9: off

Starting to feel stronger. Up'd the mileage slightly by adding a few minutes onto my long run and recovery runs. My wednesday workout was good. I decided to go slightly faster on the reps than before because I assumed my fitness has increased. I dont have a way to measure that because I'm not doing any 5ks anytime soon. They probably ended up being a little faster than they should have been. I originally was thinking 2:20, but the 2:15s felt natural and manageable. I wish the 200s had been a little faster at the end. The workout on friday felt really good. 32s feel super manageable, even with the shorter rests in between. Was having difficulty going really fast on the hard reps, but the head wind was very strong. I was going to do another 300 at the end of the workout, but the one before it was already difficult to hit, and I didnt want to kill myself just to get the time. On my recovery runs, I'm trying to do strides earlier in the day. I've found that when I do that, my run later on feels very good. I'm going to continue the mileage next week, and then the week after I'll do a time trial.

Enjoying this. Good luck to you, and please keep posting!

+1

4 runs a day

You're killing me Smalls!

Sorry, couldn't resist, carry on.

Week of 2/10/20-2/16/20

2/10-

AM: 5 minute jog, then 8x100 stride

PM: 60 minutes @ 8:20 pace

2/11-

AM: 5 minutes easy, 6x100 easy

PM: 5 miles @ 8:30

2/12- warm up. 4x150, 4x150, 350, 4x200, 4x200, 3x100 @ 12.xx , 8x150 @ 30. Cool down

2/13- 4 miles, easy

2/14- 300 meter time trial. Ran 37.XX. 1 mile cool down

2/15- off

2/16- off

Just as a preface, I coach at a high school and our season just started this week, so it affects what I do sometimes. Felt good on my longer run, probably ran too fast, but it didnt bother me much during the week. Workout on 12th involved a lot of swings in it, or pace variation. So half way through the rep I would switch from 36 second 200 pace to 32 second 200 pace, or from 32 second to 28 second 200. I hit my times, but the swings took a lot more out of me than I remember. Also the eight 150s at the end were not planned, I was running part of a workout with one of my athletes. As for the rest of the workout, it was the normal 50-100 meter walk between reps and 3 minute jogs between sets. Our track is being worked on next week, so we did a time trial this week while we still could. Thursdays run was a little shorter and easy, kind of like a premeet. I'm okay with the time I ran in the 300. A 37 isnt too bad, but I would have been a lot happier with a 36. I didnt have much competition in it, so I basically ran the whole thing on my own. I think if I had someone next to me in the last 100 meters of the race, I would have been able to push more. One thing I am okay with is that i think it's an okay time considering this distance is at the lower end of my range.

This friday with the time trial was a down mileage day for me, as well as thursday, so I believe I'll resume normal workouts next week. Erratic training this week but I usually try to put my athletes training ahead of mine, and I take whatever competition I can get.

I appreciate the encouragement. I dont know if someone was suggesting I run 4 times a day or maybe thought I was, but on my igloi inspired days, I do 4-5 sets of different length reps, but they're all in the same workout.

Ok here is my review of all of this.

I need to know a few things first.

What is your current height and weight?

I think you're doing way too much in the way of distance running and lower quality runs.

Are you able to maintain your bodyweight without the distance running or would your body weight go up alot if you stopped it?

If you can maintain your bodyweight without doing all of the distance running by watching what you eat then I have a workout program for you.

You say you want to run the 800 fast in the summer.

So start training now for it. The training you're doing is counter productive towards your goal.

You have to be getting more quality runs in.

Workout hard on 2 days per week, cut out all of the distance you're doing. That's not going to get you to a 1:52 in the 800 or better.

Here is the workout i devised for 800 runners to hit peak maximum times.

Monday(hard day #1) -

400- all out

2:30 mins rest.

400- all out

5mins rest

400- all out

2:30 rest

400- all out.

Run this 400 workout on a monday in anticipation of a friday race.

Add up each 400 meter time.. So if you ran 1:00 on all of them then that's a total time of 4:00.

WRite that total time down on paper as a reference point.. So write down total time 4:00....

Wednesdays workout.... Speed day.

8 by 40 yard dashes with 3 full mins in between.. Each one should be done all out.

Fridays workout.

4 by 200 meter dash workout.

200- all out.

21 mins rest... The 21 mins rest is designed in a way so that you are FULLY recovered before you run the next 200.. This is the quality day.. To allow for quality you have to take off a full 21 mins between each 200.

200- all out.

21 mins rest.

200- all out

21mins rest

200-all out.

Add up the total time for this workout. So if you ran them all in 25.00 then that's a total time of 1:40.

Write 1:40 down on that days workout sheet as the TOTAL TIME.

Then you take off saturday and sunday to rest.. No distance running. No jogging. Maintain your weight by watching what you eat. Lower quality runs will do nothing for the 800. It's only going to make you more slow twitch...

Mondays workout is the same exact workout the week before.

The 4 by 400 meter dash workout..

Weds workout is the same exact workout the week before... The 8 by 40 yard dash workout.

Fridays workout is the same exact workout as the week before. .. The 4 by 200 meter dash workout.

You keep doing this sequence of events over the course of the entire year. You keep striving to lower the total time in each workout. The rest times are kept the same for comparison.

Your goal should be to gradually get that total time in the 4 by 400 workout down to a total time of 3:40 with those exact rest times..

If you get that total time down to 3:40 in that workout then you now have the potential to run 1:51 in the 800.. But only if you can get that total time in that workout down that low.

You're making this way more complicated than it really is. Keep it simple..

And this workout is alot more complex than you give it credit for.

Let's run over why this works.

Notice how it's a 4 by 400 workout and not a 8 by 400 workout?

You want to run this workout exactly doubled as your race... So if your race is the 800 which it is then your workout in this should cover a total distance of 1600.

Doing exactly double produces better results. Because it's of a higher quality workout. If you did a 8 by 400 workout then that's going to produce a lower quality workout.

Each of those 400s are ran with minimal recovery time to mimic an 800 race.

The exact rest times of 2:30 , 5:00, and then 2:30 produces the best results..

They key here is to always start the next 400 when your rest time is up. Never start late or early. Make sure it's right at 2:30 , 5:00 and 2:30.. Time your rest times.

That 4 by 200 workout with the 21mins rest produces quality.... It's covers the same exact distance as your race. Notice how it's not a 8 by 200 and not a 2 by 200? It has to be the same distance of your race.

What you're doing here is over compensating. You're trying to run faster than that what your pace for the 800 would be. And you are because you're running each of these 200s all out. No slacking on these whatsoever.. Maximum effort at all times. It's the only way to be sure and it's the only way to produce the greatest results.

Now let's get into why I designed this on two days out of the week for the hard workouts.

Monday and friday are your hard days.. And then wed is the easy day.

The natural human body needs 96 hours of full recovery between workouts to produce the greatest results.

The time frame between monday and friday is exactly 96 hours. So it relates. See how that works?

Wed is just a speed day of 40s so it's really not going to effect how you feel on mondays and fridays..

Cut out all of the distance running.. Etc... Do these exact workouts and you're going to run 1:51 or even better depending on what bodyweight you can maintain.

You have a very long way to go ,....but this looks a little bit the best way to go. You have to do one workout in the week when concentrate on maxVO2 -intervals and one workout per week when concentrate at lactate threshold intervals ......then you also have to put in pure sprint speed sessions sometime and just run easy recovery runs 30-60 min at about 65-75 % of MHR.

Good luck!

- The Wizard -

honestly, matt, your plan will produce - perhaps - better 400m results but not a good 800m guy. at best one can use your plan for 3-4 weeks prior an important race to get in peak shape.

there is a reason why even the most talented 800m runners with low mileage schedules have to incorporate some endurance stuff like 5-6x800m with short rest or short but fast tempo runs.

even a world class 400m hurdler like harald schmid did 6x1000m at 3mins with short rest to get in shape.

To everyone besides Matt London:

No offense but I'm not exactly looking for training advice. Part of what I'm doing, my Igloi training, has been proven to work, both through my experience, my old teammates experience, and the plethora of world class runners it produced years ago. I am experimenting with threshold training, which I haven't done much of before. I'm interested in what Tinman is doing, as well as the Ingebrigtsens. I'm going to continue with that for the next few months, in a very basic way. I'm not going to pretend to know what they're doing, but I like the idea of not going to the well all the time. Again, I do appreciate any encouragement or helpful comments.

To Matt London:

I'll indulge you one time. I know you from this board. I know you're either a troll or a special kind of stupid. Since nothing you post is actually funny, I assume you're just an idiot. Please never post on this thread. Please never try to coach or give advice to anyone about anything involving distance running. You're a moron, and you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Your "workout plan" is stupid. Anyone who could break 2 minutes could do it

Again, you're an idiot or a really unfunny troll, I have no patience for people like you, please do not post on here.

good read, please keep on posting. there are some here who train low mileage.

your 37:xx indicates that you are in 51s shape in an open 400m, more or less. the igloi inspired days look great. i do something similar and have pretty good experiences with warming up for about 20 minutes (easy jog) the day after the igloi workout, followed by running 5-6x3min / 1min easy jog at threshold effort immediately afterwards, all on a hilly grass loop and only when i feel good.

the two days produce results, and i am 50yo. if the legs feel heavy after the 20 minutes warm up jog, i just continue easy for a total of 45-50 minutes. i am writing this because i see that you will soon have the old speed again, but maybe not yet the stamina.

I know other people and programs that frequently have back-to-back workout days, with the second day being lower intensity. Honestly the only thing holding me back from it is that I never trained that way, and I'm comfortable with the every other day schedule. I do like that workout though, the 3 on 1 off. I do it on the track via reps such as 600s or 800s with adjusted rest, in order to control my pacing. But it's very much what I'm into right now with the ingebrigtsen training and the tinman style workouts that I've been reading about and trying to emulate a little bit.

i used to train every other day due to massive achilles problems for a long time with smooth cycling at the filler days. when I was pain free i tried a few things that turned out to be right for me:

- usually only 45-50 minutes a day (rarely 60), no monster workouts but always some quality

- preferably on soft floors.

just try, if two quality days are fine. increase slowly.

Hey I am interested in all of this. Training for 800 as well and am 40 years old. Need workout ideas.

On the one hand, this is a quality thread that I'm looking forward to following. Best of luck, Dougie. Hope you're enjoying your training.

On the other hand, I'm so excited to see a collision of matt london and the wizard of letsrun. I just really want to see them talk to each other. I think it might look like the beginning of this story-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Christs_of_Ypsilanti

Week of 2/17/20-2/23/20:

2/17: 7 miles @ 8:30 pace

2/18: 5 miles @ 8:30 pace

2/19: 6x600 @2:10-2:12 w/ 30 second rest, then 6x100 @14/15 w/ walk back

2/20: 5 miles @ 8:30 pace

2/21: off

2/22: 20x 120m hill reps with jog back

2/23: off

The school that I coach at is having work done on their track for this week and the next 2 weeks as well, so I have to use a different track that is further away and a lot busier. It will probably alter what I can do for the next couple of weeks. I wasnt able to do my full cool down on wednesday, and I couldn't do my igloi workout on friday because the track was closed (it was going to be 6x150, 8x200, 6x150) so I switched it to the hill reps instead.

Besides the track availability, I'm still feeling well. I picked up the pace with the 600's again, and I felt it a little more the next day, but i still dont consider them very difficult, even with the limited rest. There was a killer head wind that day and it definitely forced me to put more energy in to the hit the times. And that's why the 100s weren't very fast, I was going straight into it.

I want to work flying 30's into one of my run recovery days. I typically run at night though, so it would be difficult to do it afterwards. I might go early on one of those days so that I can do 6-8 flying 30s in the afternoon. I haven't done any top end work and I feel like I'm lacking right now. I'm really slow off the line. I'm also thinking of doing a small mileage increase next week, maybe just an extra 5 minutes on each of my runs, or an easy 20 minute shake out on the weekends.

Nice training. I have a teammate who runs 46/146 and his training is pretty similar. If you’re right in the middle of the fast twitch / slow twitch spectrum then you really have to blend things up. You won’t get faster from slow long runs the way more aerobic types will. The short igloi threshold intervals are the way to go. I mention the long run because in your original post you said you wanted to have a long run every week but so far you haven’t stuck to it. I recommend you continue training the way you are. Another easy shakeout run won’t hurt but a real long run will just deplete you and risk injury