Another thread about this needs to be started. Not a level playing field when some teams can have a bunch of 8th graders run on their team, even if they don't score they still get the NXN experience, which is supposed to be a high school national championship meet. Something needs to be done.
8th Graders at NXN
High School Running
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And some schools have 4000 students. And each state has different maximum age rules. And each state has different transfer rules. And each state has different open enrollment rules.
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I think it's fine as long as the 8th graders aren't being sucked into full-blown high school level training. Honestly though, every school works with the hand they are dealt. Some schools have massive, wealthy populations to pull from (Temecula, Brentwood). Others can afford to fly across the country and compete in any meet they want (Dana Hills, Buchanan). Great Oak and Woodlands have "cross country class" and can easily meet with their teams twice a day including during the school day. Western schools have soccer in the spring and can pull from these teams in the fall. Your complaint is a common one from schools that would like to eliminate the advantage that they can't obtain. Would any schools agree to a team size cap? How about a budget cap? Or maybe a maximum amount of hours to meet with athletes a week?
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every year the whiny wimps from cali complain about the 8th graders, enough already.
You have schools that have 3000-4000 students, transfers every where in the state. Enough. -
lobby your state federation to make 8th graders eligible.
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How about eliminating the altitude advantage? No HS XC team can come from above 1500’ or all sea level high schools must be given a 20-24 second head start!
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Being allowed to field 8th graders on your team when competing teams cannot is materially and substantially different than an altitude advantage. NXN rosters should absolutely be limited to 9th-12th graders.
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For the record Saratoga would still have won easily without its two 8th graders.
The losers need to find a better excuse. -
Correct. But it is the same as some states allowing transfers and 19 years olds and open enrollment while other states do not.
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You are missing the main point here: why are athletes who are not currently in high school allowed to compete at what is billed as the high school national championship? That's not the same as having a large student body or being at altitude. It is not an equal playing field of high school athletes. People pointing out Saratgoa's 8th graders also miss the point: those girls will be scoring for them in the future and they are gaining an advantage by getting to run at NXN while still in middle school. If everyone was allowed to use 8th graders that would be one thing, but it's not.
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Missing the Point wrote:
You are missing the main point here: why are athletes who are not currently in high school allowed to compete at what is billed as the high school national championship? That's not the same as having a large student body or being at altitude. It is not an equal playing field of high school athletes. People pointing out Saratgoa's 8th graders also miss the point: those girls will be scoring for them in the future and they are gaining an advantage by getting to run at NXN while still in middle school. If everyone was allowed to use 8th graders that would be one thing, but it's not.
And you are also missing the point.
There are all manner of inequalities across all the states, in terms of participation policies, enrollment policies, school-district sizes (uh, yeah, it matters), and other factors (wealth, etc) that previous posters have pointed out. A truly level playing field is impossible.
New York State has somewhere around 620 public high schools... maybe 25% of these have graduating classes of 60 or less. They often couldn't field full teams without 7th and 8th graders. So they are allowed. If NY had huge school districts like CA and Texas, they probably wouldn't be. Of course, were this the case... FM and Liverpool would probably be one high school, as would Shen-Saratoga-Ballston Spa... and folks would have a different reason to complain. -
It's Relative wrote:
Some schools have massive, wealthy populations to pull from (Temecula, Brentwood). Others can afford to fly across the country and compete in any meet they want (Dana Hills, Buchanan). Great Oak and Woodlands have "cross country class" and can easily meet with their teams twice a day including during the school day.
Buchanan hasn’t traveled more than 5 hours for a meet (besides NXN) in the last 20 years, but overall your point makes sense. -
Missing the Point wrote:
You are missing the main point here: why are athletes who are not currently in high school allowed to compete at what is billed as the high school national championship?
Because the national high school championship meet is a meet where the best high school teams compete, and these girls compete on a high school team in their home state. It’s not complicated.
anacondarunner wrote:
Being allowed to field 8th graders on your team when competing teams cannot is materially and substantially different than an altitude advantage. NXN rosters should absolutely be limited to 9th-12th graders.
How? -
NXN isn't a school event. If a school has an 8th grader running Jr High/modified they can bring her up to run with the team at NXN.
If she's that good the coach could train her all season as if she was on varsity.
That's it- the playing field is level. -
No they can't. NXN makes the team follow the state rules.
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201 women competed at NXN, 3 were 8th graders, only 1 scored for a team as 5th woman. If the 6th woman, a 10th grader, counted in her place, the team's performance would have been the same.
Given most of the wisdom on let's run, it's actually a disadvantage to have these 8th graders, as they will burn out and become non-factors before they become upperclassmen. -
We need to stop calling 8th grade girls who become women and slower just "burn out". No its abuse. Young girls who haven't even gone through puberty yet are given mileage and workouts that would be challenging for a 20 year old let alone a 13 year old. Taking young girls who haven't developed and using their pre pubescent bodies to win a national championship (where they most likely won't be 4 years down the line) is downright selfish, wrong, and abusive. It isn't just "too much too soon" you are giving these girls years of mental struggles as they gain weight and become slower. They will blame themselves and they will struggle. In extreme cases the stress of the training at this age can prevent their bodies from developing correctly- ie they will be much more likely to have low bone density.
It isn't a matter of; is this fair we want the same chance to win. This is a much bigger issue that needs to be addressed. We should worry and care for these girls- my heart breaks when I see their frail young bodies standing on that podium- because I know how the story ends. -
Can we Be Real? wrote:
We need to stop calling 8th grade girls who become women and slower just "burn out". No its abuse. Young girls who haven't even gone through puberty yet are given mileage and workouts that would be challenging for a 20 year old let alone a 13 year old. Taking young girls who haven't developed and using their pre pubescent bodies to win a national championship (where they most likely won't be 4 years down the line) is downright selfish, wrong, and abusive..
Do you have any evidence at all that these girls are "given mileage and workouts that would be challenging for a 20 year old?" Or is this just more talking out your ass, like so many posters on Letsrun. -
Can we Be Real? wrote:
We need to stop calling 8th grade girls who become women and slower just "burn out". No its abuse. Young girls who haven't even gone through puberty yet are given mileage and workouts that would be challenging for a 20 year old let alone a 13 year old. Taking young girls who haven't developed and using their pre pubescent bodies to win a national championship (where they most likely won't be 4 years down the line) is downright selfish, wrong, and abusive. It isn't just "too much too soon" you are giving these girls years of mental struggles as they gain weight and become slower. They will blame themselves and they will struggle. In extreme cases the stress of the training at this age can prevent their bodies from developing correctly- ie they will be much more likely to have low bone density.
It isn't a matter of; is this fair we want the same chance to win. This is a much bigger issue that needs to be addressed. We should worry and care for these girls- my heart breaks when I see their frail young bodies standing on that podium- because I know how the story ends.
+1.
Of the 6 7th graders we had on our team not a single one of them was running by their senior year (many quit sooner). That level of intensity while your body is trying to develop is extremely harmful and from what I have seen it’s impossible to make it through without injury. Anyone who disagrees with this is insane.
Also, the maturity test is a joke, done by the school nurse who is completely unqualified- it’s just a technicality. -
I apologize for my sarcasm, although it's usually appreciated on here. My main point was that 3 8th graders out of 201 participants, none making an impact on the results, does not seem to constitute an unfair advantage.
While I agree there are horror stories of kids who are exploited and develop eating disorders, there are also plenty of healthy success stories. In fact recent seniors Tuohy, Morales and Walters all ran NXN as 8th graders and developed as seniors into healthy, athletic, (even muscular) well rounded seniors, who will all be attending college in the Fall.
I was making fun of the tendency here to look at every performance of these kids as a chance to predict their demise, pretty much ignoring anyone who has a happy healthy career. When I do come across a kid at a meet, who looks like they may be too emaciated, or facing an eating disorder, I choose to handle that privately with a coach or parent rather than calling out a high schooler publicly. There are problems, but on a case by case basis, not really a generalization across the whole sport.
