High mileage 800 training

Peter Snell, Steve Ovett, and John Walker(though stayed more in the 90 MPW range) are another few. Look them up.

I would also look into John Kellogg style training. He's all about using high mileage for events down to 800, but I think his training also reflects this (similar to lydiard, but lydiard shows almost no emphasis on mid d work in base phase, unless you look more at Snell's training). He has a lot of threshold type runs in the base phase followed by sets of strides and then towards the start of the competition phase, he starts to do more mid d work with sprints and lactate clearance workouts (I think that's what it was, might've been something similar), but with the majority of the focus on LT and some harder workouts. It's really good stuff to look into, even if you take just a few pieces from it.

Also, since you're a really good runner, you should think about keeping us updated on your training, it's really cool to see training logs of guys like you!

(Another person to look into might be Former Sub 14:00 here on LRC, just search his name in quotes here. He's got some good posts about training in general.)

Another good thread is the "3:45 1500m Training" thread. West Coast Runner goes into amazing depth about his training, which netted him some pretty good results!

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5162781

Check it out, you might glean something useful from it.

More info on the workouts your are doing throughout the cycle? Must be doing something wrong if your not improving the entire cycle.

Wondering if you’re not maintaining the aerobic base long enough so you’re trading off fitness rather than adding fitness throughout the season. Maybe increase a little bit this winter but keep the mileage higher during the early part of the season?

With 49 and 3.46 you shoul run about 1.47.3.

Actually friend of mine did 1.47.4 with 49x speed and 3.45,7 in a year.

I think mileage isn t an issue, you may over periodize.

You wrote that you re dropping mileage and do shorter and intense workouts in season.

You should stick with tempos and long vo2 reps all year long even in race weeks Imo.

Or maybe you should do more specific workouts, lfor example with very short rest 3-4*300 off 30sec at race pace , and some really intense with long rest like 600-500-300 off 8min at mile -800-400pace all while maintaining tempo and long reps.

Good trick imo to do combo work like

2 mile tempo than 6-8*200 at race pace with short rest

Or 5*600 or whatever long intervals you doing and than full rec and a specific set like3*300, after unimportant races you could throw a shor tempo too.

I think mileage isn t an issue here.

I did about the same at the 800 as You but i m averaging 40-50km s a week whole year and didnt really periodize, more like an australian complex sistem, although im kinda suck at the 1500 but about a same speed at the 400 ( 49-50low)

Maybe you should write some example week to see the issue

NWARunner wrote:

Also, since you're a really good runner, you should think about keeping us updated on your training, it's really cool to see training logs of guys like you!

(Another person to look into might be Former Sub 14:00 here on LRC, just search his name in quotes here. He's got some good posts about training in general.)

I'll check out the post. I've read through the sub 1:50 and 3:45 training forums, and my current structure has been influenced a fair bit by the 800 post. One of the pros of training and coaching alone is that it's easy to experiment even if it's just to keep the mind fresh.

My current winter training is along the lines of:

Easy pace is anywhere from 6:15 - 7 min pace, depending on how I feel.

Mon AM: 8m easy,

PM: 4m easy, drills, strides

Tue AM: tempo - 30 mins, or 2x15 mins @ 5 - 5:15 pace

PM: 400 specific work: 80 - 150m reps

Wed AM: 13 miles in about 90 minutes

PM: 30 minutes VERY easy (with nonrunning friends, about 8/9 minute pace)

Thurs AM: 30-40 minutes easy

PM: Alernate between lactate threshold type sessions (ie, mile reps, 1km reps. Vary it up a bit, around 5-7 miles of hard running normally), and something more track specific (such as 10x400, pyramid like 200, 400, 800, 1200 and back down).

Fri: 30-45 minutes easy

Saturday: Longer reps. Something like 4x8 minutes, 6x5 minutes, with short or active recovery.

Sunday: 90 - 120 minutes @ 6:30 pace, working down to 6 minute pace for the last half hour.

xccoach55112 wrote:

Wondering if you’re not maintaining the aerobic base long enough so you’re trading off fitness rather than adding fitness throughout the season. Maybe increase a little bit this winter but keep the mileage higher during the early part of the season?

I've thought about this. An alternative might also treat the year with 2 peaks rather than one - at the moment I train my base through indoor season. But if I peaked for indoor, then I could maybe maintain the longer stuff for longer into Summer, knowing that I haven't neglected the real specific work for 8 - 9 months.

Either way, I think I want to keep my mileage high not just through winter, but also into summer. I enjoy running high mileage and would like to see what comes of this "experiment" for 2-3 seasons. What I'm interested in is seeing other people that have run in the 100-120 range and how they structured their week, and how this changed throughout the year. At the moment I have 3 quality workout days per week, which with high mileage might be a bit too much, so I've thought about cutting it back to 2 workout days per week.

"I think mileage isn t an issue, you may over periodize.

You wrote that you re dropping mileage and do shorter and intense workouts in season.

You should stick with tempos and long vo2 reps all year long even in race weeks Imo."

This is a good point. My only query is, if I stick with the tempo and vo2 reps all year round, where do I fit in the 800 specific work? Just one session of this type per week during outdoor season?

You drop your milege way too much and any gains you make in speed are offset by loss of endurance hence why you don't improve from indoor to outdoor. Instead of going 80-60-40 just go 80-70-60. If the mileage makes you feel stake I would recommend doing doubles instead of singles.

citius5000 wrote:

More info on the workouts your are doing throughout the cycle? Must be doing something wrong if your not improving the entire cycle.

Without making my posts too lengthy, the general framework is similar all year round, but coming into Summer:

I drop the Wednesday long run, cut the Sunday long run back to 90 minutes, and miss a few of the easy doubles so I am a bit fresher during summer.

I shorten the Tuesday tempo to 10-15 minutes so I can hit the speed harder in the afternoon.

Thursday vo2 reps become more 800/1500 specific - 400 - 600 reps, for about 3km of total work all up (2x5x400, 5x600, 3x(600, 200) etc...

Saturday becomes something very 800 specific - 3x400 with 10 minutes recovery in 52-53, 2x3x300 with 1 minute/7minute recovery in 40s etc.

*keep doubling even as you drop milege

Jgt11 wrote:

You drop your milege way too much and any gains you make in speed are offset by loss of endurance hence why you don't improve from indoor to outdoor. Instead of going 80-60-40 just go 80-70-60. If the mileage makes you feel stake I would recommend doing doubles instead of singles.

This. WAY too much taper. Your 10k PR of 31:30 is actually solid for your times, but the thing is you have that PR when you run high mileage/come off it, when you go down to 40 mpw I guarantee you you will NOT be in 31:30 shape, but much lower. Let's say you fall back to 32:30-33:00 10k shape, that is not an adequate time for someone wanting to run faster than 1:50 in an 800. You would literally die in the 2nd lap due to lack of aerobic fitness, even if you are in 48s 400m FAT shape at that time.

Also disagree with the guy who said with your 400m speed you should be running much faster in the 800, 49.0 FAT = ~1:48 with highly developed endurance. Gonna be hard to run much faster without improving the 400m as well.

I should clarify, I only get down to 40 mpw for 2, maybe 3 weeks at the end of the season. I would also usually be racing 1-3 times a week during this period, and not trying to improve my fitness anymore.

I would usually sit around the 60-65 mpw range from June - August before finishing up the season in late August/early September.

I'm also a bit confused about what you're trying to say, aside from "if you have better endurance, but also improve your top end speed, you will be better". I take that that's kind of a given, but how to achieve that is the question?

Regardless, I'm not looking to tweak my training but try something new with high mileage in the 110 mpw range. I want to know if anyone here has tried to run 800s of this kind of mileage before and their experiences.

Another good thread is the "3:45 1500m Training" thread. West Coast Runner goes into amazing depth about his training, which netted him some pretty good results!

I definitely agree that two peaks a year is the way to go. They don't both need to be 6 month long cycles. Line it up with an indoor peak and outdoor peak. Could be 8 months and 4 months or 7 months and 5 months (this would be my guess?) as I live in New England. Otherwise you end up spending to long in each phase.

With your winter outline you don't need that Saturday workout. Just make it an easy day or do your long run that day. I don't believe in easy long runs so you can push the ending miles of your long run or do pickups etc. Otherwise I like what you got planned.

Now with your progression when you get to that 800/1500 specific workouts you should do these on Tuesday (further back from the race) and move Tuesday's workout to Thursday as this is an easier workout and less race specific. Saturday looks good if not racing.

Obviously Peter Snell did High mileage Lydiard training for 800/1500 with marathon-length long runs. And on the topic of Lydiard, one way you could benefit speed especially during base phase is to do hill work. Whether hilly long runs, hill sprints, or anything in between hill work will really help you recruit more fast fibers while strengthening your legs and preparing you for sprint work as you enter the track phase of training.

800-marathon guy wrote:

Saturday becomes something very 800 specific - 3x400 with 10 minutes recovery in 52-53, 2x3x300 with 1 minute/7minute recovery in 40s etc.

Do you think this should be focused on more? Does race pace usually feel slow or fast? It seems like you do faster work but little _at_ 800m pace. Further, for the majority of the year it look like you touch on V02 but stay away from 800m pace.

You are fit, you run a good 10000m for an 800 guy. It seems like your specific endurance is off to me, not your general endurance.