Something happened today at the Pennsylvania State XC Championships that I've never seen before, and had only ever discussed in the context of it being even theoretically possible.
Quick background: Last week in the District 6 Single A girls race Saint Joseph's Catholic finished 3rd in a very close race.
1 Westmont Hilltop 51
2 Marion Center 52
3 Saint Josephs Cath 57
http://www.runhigh.com/2019RESULTS/R102619BF.html
Only the top 2 teams from district 6 qualify for states so St Josephs did not make the state meet as a team. However, the district qualifies the top 10 individuals who were not on the two auto qualifying teams (Westmont Hilltop and Marion Center). St Josephs had 5 girls finish in individual qualifying spots.
Today at the State Meet the 5 individual qualifiers from St Josephs scored as a team and won the State Championship.
http://www.runhigh.com/2019RESULTS/R110219AB.html
Question: Should they have been allowed to score as a team at the State meet? I personally think it is great that they were allowed to, and pulled off the win. But were they really a team? Other than wearing the same uniform, they were 5 individual qualifiers and did not finish in a team qualifying spot. Why couldn't 5 individual qualifiers from 5 different schools tell the state that they want to compete as a team at the state championship? Is this scenario really that different? Anyhow, a crazy situation that is an insane outlier in terms of likelihood in of happening in the sport.
Pennsylvania School Wins State Team XC Title With 5 Individual Qualifiers
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never seen before wrote:
Something happened today at the Pennsylvania State XC Championships that I've never seen before, and had only ever discussed in the context of it being even theoretically possible.
Quick background: Last week in the District 6 Single A girls race Saint Joseph's Catholic finished 3rd in a very close race.
1 Westmont Hilltop 51
2 Marion Center 52
3 Saint Josephs Cath 57
http://www.runhigh.com/2019RESULTS/R102619BF.html
Only the top 2 teams from district 6 qualify for states so St Josephs did not make the state meet as a team. However, the district qualifies the top 10 individuals who were not on the two auto qualifying teams (Westmont Hilltop and Marion Center). St Josephs had 5 girls finish in individual qualifying spots.
Today at the State Meet the 5 individual qualifiers from St Josephs scored as a team and won the State Championship.
http://www.runhigh.com/2019RESULTS/R110219AB.html
Question: Should they have been allowed to score as a team at the State meet? I personally think it is great that they were allowed to, and pulled off the win. But were they really a team? Other than wearing the same uniform, they were 5 individual qualifiers and did not finish in a team qualifying spot. Why couldn't 5 individual qualifiers from 5 different schools tell the state that they want to compete as a team at the state championship? Is this scenario really that different? Anyhow, a crazy situation that is an insane outlier in terms of likelihood in of happening in the sport.
Lol, I was asking my coach at the meet if that had ever happened before. Crazy. -
Seems like having only top 2 teams go forward is a very narrow cut-off for the size of field of teams and number of runners, so mathematically it is more probable then when top 5 teams go on, for example.
The times / places of their 4 and 5 runners made this outcome less surprising.
Answering your question as a YES, by the way. -
Missouri allows this as well. If you have 5 individual qualifiers, you can get a team score (but you don’t get to run a 6 or 7 runner in the next meet).
I’m fine with it - it rarely happens, but when it does it’s usually because there was a super tight team race (and a significant drop off to the non qualifying teams). -
That's crazy. I get what you mean about the random individuals deciding to be a team but the thing is these girls literally are a team haha as in they are on the same team, train together, etc so to deny them the team title seems like a ludicrous idea, no? This must be very rare but awesome for them that they were able to run well when it counts.
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I think something like this happened, many moons ago, in the NCAA.
IIRC Williams College had a policy (at the time) of not advancing teams to NCAA D3 championship competitions. But in the Regional meet, five women from Williams qualified individually. So they ran as a team in the National meet.
I believe the NCAA and/or Williams took action to make sure this could not happen again. -
Pennsylvania has strong XC programs. I'm surprised that this was pulled off at its state meet.
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As a libertarian, this absolutely should not be allowed. Results should be reversed.
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lease wrote:
I think something like this happened, many moons ago, in the NCAA.
IIRC Williams College had a policy (at the time) of not advancing teams to NCAA D3 championship competitions. But in the Regional meet, five women from Williams qualified individually. So they ran as a team in the National meet.
I believe the NCAA and/or Williams took action to make sure this could not happen again.
Why would the college have such a policy? -
lease wrote:
I think something like this happened, many moons ago, in the NCAA.
IIRC Williams College had a policy (at the time) of not advancing teams to NCAA D3 championship competitions. But in the Regional meet, five women from Williams qualified individually. So they ran as a team in the National meet.
I believe the NCAA and/or Williams took action to make sure this could not happen again.
I guess this explains why only 4 individual qualifiers come from regionals. Which always struck me as a bit paltry but whatever. -
epicTCK wrote:
lease wrote:
I think something like this happened, many moons ago, in the NCAA.
IIRC Williams College had a policy (at the time) of not advancing teams to NCAA D3 championship competitions. But in the Regional meet, five women from Williams qualified individually. So they ran as a team in the National meet.
I believe the NCAA and/or Williams took action to make sure this could not happen again.
Why would the college have such a policy?
Presumably so that members of a team would not be peer-pressured into participating in a national competition . . . if they felt it conflicted with their academic commitments. -
coach wrote:
Pennsylvania has strong XC programs. I'm surprised that this was pulled off at its state meet.
Coach: PA has a strong AAA XC programs. Single A is a complete joke. -
Fred Gwynne wrote:
coach wrote:
Pennsylvania has strong XC programs. I'm surprised that this was pulled off at its state meet.
Coach: PA has a strong AAA XC programs. Single A is a complete joke.
1A schools are MUCH smaller than 3A schools. It's not surprising that 3A schools tend to be better. However, the top few 1A teams were better than the last few 3A teams yesterday, even on the girls side, and on the boys side even the top half of 1A was roughly on par with the bottom half of 3A.
Considering the situation, I wouldn't call the PA 1A scene a 'complete joke' -
never seen before wrote:
Question: Should they have been allowed to score as a team at the State meet? I personally think it is great that they were allowed to, and pulled off the win. But were they really a team? Other than wearing the same uniform, they were 5 individual qualifiers and did not finish in a team qualifying spot. Why couldn't 5 individual qualifiers from 5 different schools tell the state that they want to compete as a team at the state championship? Is this scenario really that different? Anyhow, a crazy situation that is an insane outlier in terms of likelihood in of happening in the sport.
I think so. They are essentially an "At-Large" team that is included in the field due to how good they are, despite not qualifying through the primary qualification structure (automatic qualification by finishing in the top X spots at their qualifying meet).
And yes, I would consider them a team: a team in XC is at least 5 runners. Would you not consider a team that earned an AQ spot but didn't have sixth or seventh runners a team still?
5 runners from 5 different schools wouldn't be able to successfully petition to be scored as a team, because they aren't a team. The only cases of that happening that I know of are where multiple schools combine together in all sports because they are too small to have teams by themselves, and are then classified based on the size of all those schools combined - and that's done prior to the season, and they train and compete as a team all season under the same coach. It's not remotely the same.
Yes, that scenario is vastly different. -
Oh? wrote:
Fred Gwynne wrote:
coach wrote:
Pennsylvania has strong XC programs. I'm surprised that this was pulled off at its state meet.
Coach: PA has a strong AAA XC programs. Single A is a complete joke.
1A schools are MUCH smaller than 3A schools. It's not surprising that 3A schools tend to be better. However, the top few 1A teams were better than the last few 3A teams yesterday, even on the girls side, and on the boys side even the top half of 1A was roughly on par with the bottom half of 3A.
Considering the situation, I wouldn't call the PA 1A scene a 'complete joke'
I would agree not a complete joke, but Single A schools are the smallest of the smallest schools. Since it looks like District 6 is made up mostly of small schools, scoring at the State Meet may have not have been that much tougher than Districts -- I admit I have no firsthand experience with District 6. The "strong XC" programs that a poster above discusses are likely Philadelphia and Pittsburgh area AAA schools. -
Wow , that is great !
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Fred Gwynne wrote:
coach wrote:
Pennsylvania has strong XC programs. I'm surprised that this was pulled off at its state meet.
Coach: PA has a strong AAA XC programs. Single A is a complete joke.
Something similar 'almost' happened in the 3A meet back when district 12 only had one team and 5 individuals qualifiers for a couple years. I think in 2011 or 2012 Ohara won the district meet and went on to get 2nd or 3rd at the state meet, while lasalle grabbed all 5 qualifying spots and would have got 3rd or 4th at the state meet if their results counted. -
Well, we have to admit there is a difference in talent in PA from AAA to A, as my daughter would have won the A meet but placed Top 10 in the AAA meet. Her coach says he'd take her time in AAA over a A state championship, but part of me disagrees, as my brother is married to a girl that won AA and although we give her crap for racing AA (we all ran AAA), she still is the only state champion in the family!
Back on topic, that's amazing that 5 individuals qualified, but in AAA there would be #1 runners scoring single digit points yet placing well past 20th place. -
Hershey wrote:
Well, we have to admit there is a difference in talent in PA from AAA to A, as my daughter would have won the A meet but placed Top 10 in the AAA meet. Her coach says he'd take her time in AAA over a A state championship, but part of me disagrees, as my brother is married to a girl that won AA and although we give her crap for racing AA (we all ran AAA), she still is the only state champion in the family!
Back on topic, that's amazing that 5 individuals qualified, but in AAA there would be #1 runners scoring single digit points yet placing well past 20th place.
Schools of 2000 obviously have a greater talent pool than schools of 500. Also they have greater competition within their own team. I contend if an athlete from a small school attended a large school they would likely be faster. There’s talent at the small schools it’s just getting thrown into the big pots. The truly impressive programs are the small schools that are competitive year after year. -
It's remarkable to have 5 strong runners but narrowly miss qualifying as a team and then performing that well at States. Certainly there are plenty of teams that lack depth of a 4th or 5th strong runner to qualify as a team. This is different.
I had pondered this in the past when a school would get 3 or 4 runners through. I assumed that if the 'team' didn't qualify, then they wouldn't be eligible. Now I know better. Kudos
