Why did I bonk? Fitness, Fuel or Illness (or a little of all)?

You didn't bonk. You blew up. The pace was too fast for your threshold. Someone well trained and relatively fast can run HM at 88% max HR. Obviously you couldn't. You need more structured training aiming to build aerobic base and increasing the threshold. But most importantly: don't set goal arbitrarily. Race according your condition, not your desire.

Are you eating any vegetables? How much raw red meat is in your diet?

To me it seems you needed to take a gel around mile 5-7. If you are running for 2+ hours at a race effort, I would fuel.

@LearntheBasics What is the difference between "bonking" and "blowing up"? I'm happy to use the correct terminology.

So, how do you estimate what pace to run? In February before my half I ran 8 miles is 11:25. I generally run my long runs/slow runs at @14 to 14:30 (HR zone 2) and have really only had about 10% speed work prior to the three 4mi/3mi or 3mi/3mi @12 training I did (one each week in week minus 5, 4 and 3). I'd much rather run a consistent pace race than "blowing up". I should have slowed my pace when my HR got to 155 to keep it there or lower?

Thanks

@YMMV. Yes I eat lot's of vegetables. Mostly beans and rice. More chicken than red meat.

Icouldbeyourmom wrote:

To me it seems you needed to take a gel around mile 5-7. If you are running for 2+ hours at a race effort, I would fuel.

I find it amazing that we were able to run fast before the invention of performance goop and water tables.

OP- 2 words

unrealistic goal

They are different kinds of fatigue. Blowing up is due to going out too fast and lactic acid accumulation. It can happen at all distances. Bonking (if you mean "hitting the wall") is due to glycogen depletion (happens around 20 milish), not in HM or shorter. It can still happen even if you run slowly.

Okay, I'm being pedantic here. People often use "bonking" to describe inability to continue running or maintaining the pace. However, the solutions are very different. The former needs increasing your lactate ceiling (more threshold-type workout), the latter endurance (slow, longer distance). If you run 5k-10k often and take some risk to PB, you'll know what blowing up is (and no, it has nothing to do with nutrition or even drinking; even HM doesn't require eating). To understand real bonking: do super easy long run (somewhere scenic) in the order of 3-4 hour (try to not eat as long as possible, although have some food ready as well as bus ticket or phone for taxi). Allow few days after to recover.

Hard to say if HR 155 is your limit, because lactate threshold can vary depending on the fitness (for some very good people may be 90%max HR, but can be 60-70% for sedentary). Your watch may have lactate threshold test (which involves running progressive pace/HR). Or you do it manually (search for Hadd's method in this forum). Basically you need to find the maximum pace where you can run with steady HR for an hour. HM would need to be run below that.

@LearntheBasics Thanks for the clarification, and I don't find it too pedantic. I think words are important and I appreciate it.

I had recently run 8 miles @11:23 (1hr 30min, HR >160 for at least 30 min), with a pick up in pace the last two miles. That's why I thought @12/min pace would work. I never felt lactic acid accumulation in my HM, so I *thought* I was below the threshold (but, frankly, I suppose I'm still too new at this to really know).

From your input I think I'm hearing I did not have enough threshold workouts. The plan I had used did not have one every week and had even fewer speed workouts. I did have some worry about that. The plan I have now for my Dec HM (in 8 weeks) has one threshold run each week and one speed workout every other week. It sounds like that should help.

"as well as bus ticket or phone for taxi" - love it! LOL

Thanks for the insight.

kegoangoango wrote:

Race: out and back, "hilly" for me (820 ft elevation gain, when even on my long runs only 20ft total), temp typically hot for my running. Was planning on negative pacing. Mi 1 - 11:58; Mi 2 - 11:53, Mi 3:12:21, Mi 4: 12:10, Mi 5:11:59, Mi 6: 12:06. Made the turn at 12:02 and felt really good. Mi 7 & 8: 12:00.

Then BONKED!! Without hurting (joints or muscles), I completely bonked. Finished race at 12:54. I just couldn't get my legs to go.

Trying to wrap my brain around this. Twelve minutes per mile? That's not running, that's shuffling. What a horribly grueling way to cover 13.1 miles! Stop tracking your heart rate and start running. Knee lift, back kick. Move, man!

Okay maybe I am being too harsh, but I have some experience at this. I'm your height, weight and age. And I was recently "running" at your pace, too.

Coming back from a long layoff, I was struggling to hit a 12-minute initial mile. That wasn't too unusual, I've always taken a while to warm up. But I was stuck at that pace. Couldn't speed up. I found it difficult even to hold 11- or 12-minute miles for 7-mile training loops.

For week after week, month after month, every training run was like that: a grueling shuffle. I'd try to force myself to go faster, but just couldn't. Every day was a death march. Every mile like the final miles of a bonked marathon.

Finally, I bit the bullet and FORCED myself to START FASTER, and avoid getting locked into that 12:00/mi pace. It was incredibly difficult. Felt like quarter-mile race pace. Desperate, hard, labored breathing. Lactic acid building up in my legs. Heart pounding who knows how fast (I've never tracked heart rate).

But I hit Mile One at sub-10 for the first time in months. And you know what, the second mile, too. And the third. Breathing had settled down. Legs felt better.

I consciously thought about form and turnover. I concentrated on knee lift. To the point where it felt weird and exaggerated. A faster cadence happens automatically with knee lift. I tried to minimize ground contact time.

The fourth (and final) mile was sub-9. I had finally broken the "pace lock" that had mired me in drudgery for months.

For a couple weeks I kept my runs short. Four miles. Started each one like a race. Every first mile was daunting, but I resisted the temptation to start easy. By the third mile each day, though, the pace was almost comfortable.

I started looking forward to "kicking" the final mile of each run. Sub-8! Once, a sub-7!

Now I am back to "normal." I allow myself to start slowly, even have entire slow runs. But still focus on knee lift, back kick, and reducing the "shuffle." Run, man, run!

@old and slow too

That's what I was doing prior to last year. I was running just about every run as a race. 9:30 5ks was not a problem. Speed work in the 7s and some in the 6s. In 100f heat with heat indexes often over 110 and as high as 115/116, it was brutal and frankly not that fun. I got stuck at the 9:30 and couldn't seem to get more speed.

Having an athletic background where I've always been above average but not elite in just about every sport I tried, 9:30 wasn't cutting it. If other "old guys" could run 9-10 HM and sub 9 5ks, I know I can. I just need to really get back into shape.

So I started to read more about longer distance race training and nearly everyone recommends stepping back to the "go slow to run fast" MAF method (as I'm sure you've also seen). Although I'm not injury prone, I started this in May to get in better shape. It simply made reasonable sense to me and it seems the elite runners do this.

I also researched a lot on running form, because I didn't like "shuffling" around a HM, like I did in early 2017. I started concentrating on foot strike and cadence. No doubt, 12/ml is *slow*, but I was doing this at @175 cadence. I'm sure that my fitness and leg strength for longer strides is where I need to focus. I know it will take a couple of years but I'm wanting to get back to "above average".

kegoangoango wrote:

@LearntheBasics What is the difference between "bonking" and "blowing up"? I'm happy to use the correct terminology.

So, how do you estimate what pace to run? In February before my half I ran 8 miles is 11:25. I generally run my long runs/slow runs at @14 to 14:30 (HR zone 2) and have really only had about 10% speed work prior to the three 4mi/3mi or 3mi/3mi @12 training I did (one each week in week minus 5, 4 and 3). I'd much rather run a consistent pace race than "blowing up". I should have slowed my pace when my HR got to 155 to keep it there or lower?

Thanks

Listen to the above poster. Learn to run by feel. It doesn't matter how fast or slow you are. If you run enough, you'll learn what different efforts feel like (eg, tempo, interval, HM, steady, long hard). They're related, and their individual to you, and they won't necessarily = the same watch time day to day, week to week, or training vs racing.

And stop looking at your HR while you're running...and certainly while you're racing. Data are mostly useful (to whatever extent they are) AFTER running.

kegoangoango wrote:

That's what I was doing prior to last year. I was running just about every run as a race. 9:30 5ks was not a problem. Speed work in the 7s and some in the 6s. In 100f heat with heat indexes often over 110 and as high as 115/116, it was brutal and frankly not that fun. I got stuck at the 9:30 and couldn't seem to get more speed.

Hey, I'm glad you didn't take offense at my take on things. It does sound like you're on track for continued improvement, just beware of "pace lock" at 12-minute miles.

Besides planned workouts, I think it helps to run varied paces, and think about form. I have no idea what my cadence is -- I've never counted it, so your 175 reference doesn't mean anything to me. I tend to overstride, so concentrating on knee lift and back kick is particularly helpful.

I've long been a proponent of slow and easy training. I ran many 9-minute miles even when 5:10 was race pace in my youth. As a 50-year-old, I'd start a run at 13-minute pace, and naturally progress to 7:00.

I'd never experienced what happened earlier this year. Stuck at 12- minute miles. Oddest thing, and frustrating as heck.

I tried picking up the pace, mid-run, by targeting a telephone pole or tree up ahead. But last for only a few strides before succumbing to an overwhelming need to slow down.

I should also point out that those couple weeks that I was "racing" my 4-mile training loop, I was running only three days a week. So it was every run, but not every day.

As far as your original question, 3 hours is a long time be shuffling along at 12-minute pace. When I was stuck at 11-12-minute miles, my "long runs" were 12 to 16 miles, and I bonked every time. Took all my willpower to not stop and walk.

I had to read over your post a couple of times. It seems like you are mostly doing the right things and would expect you to be closer to 10:00 min pace. I am a little older and a little lighter but have a couple of suggestions.

1) Run at a better time. The heat index is taxing your cardiovascular system but not your muscular and skeletal systems. This should improve the quality of your training.

2) Run a 5K or two. This does a couple of things. It gets you use to running a little faster, teaches you pacing and gives you a reference point for running conversion tables.

The tables aren't perfect but I have found that my pace matches predictions from 5K to 1/2M. This should help you zero in on your 1/2M target pace.

I really appreciate all the varied input. It helps me wrap my mind around different methods of training and encourages me that I can get faster - just have to train better.

As an aside, my goal is 12/min/mi for HM because I can do a 12:45 to 12:30. After I do 12, I'll be lower it :) I know at some point because of age I'm not going to be able to continue to lower it, but that's got to be at least 4 or 5 min/mi faster than I'm doing now. :)

Yes, yes, I'm slow, slow. But I won't be forever. :)

I got a new plan for my Dec HM that includes more varied paces with one threshold run per week and one speed work per week. Its less miles per week, but based on everyone's input it appears the plan I had didn't have enough 10k/5k/faster training sessions. I was not comfortable with that plan, but I stuck to it because the mileage got up to 35 in weeks minus 5, 4 and 3. I thought, "Well, more miles has got to help." It definitely did make running 6-8 miles easy, but didn't give me any speed.

Guess we'll see how this plan works in Dec :)

I think you just need to rethink your nutrition during runs. sips of water and gatorade won't be sufficient for a max-effort 2.5hr run. some run a marathon in 2.5hrs and they're certainly fueling substantially. start trying out gels.

I think your main issue though is a lack of longer runs in training. 8 miles, 9 miles isn't very far to prepare for a 13 mile race. once every 10 days or so, or even once per week, you should do a run from 10-14 miles at whatever pace you can manage without it being too hard that you need time off to recover.

I also think you should be cycling more to increase overall fitness while avoiding injury. bike 2 days a week at high intensity for at least an hour. that would be a good start

Your goal is a half marathon under two hours 2h 37min.

This was your lead-up running mileage:

June - 54 miles

July - 72 miles

Aug - 86 miles

Sept - 114 miles

And your long run was 8.5 miles.

First, you'd have done a better if this were reversed, with the bigger mileage in June etc.

Second, the long runs are too short.

Third, running mileage is too low.

You're a new runner, so you're not working a big base.

Run (a lot) more.

You'll easily bust 2:30 like a pinata - and without obsessing about nutrition or HR.

reed wrote:

I think you just need to rethink your nutrition during runs. sips of water and gatorade won't be sufficient for a max-effort 2.5hr run. some run a marathon in 2.5hrs and they're certainly fueling substantially. start trying out gels.

I think your main issue though is a lack of longer runs in training. 8 miles, 9 miles isn't very far to prepare for a 13 mile race. once every 10 days or so, or even once per week, you should do a run from 10-14 miles at whatever pace you can manage without it being too hard that you need time off to recover.

I also think you should be cycling more to increase overall fitness while avoiding injury. bike 2 days a week at high intensity for at least an hour. that would be a good start

Taking a harder look at nutrition for hard long runs is a very good idea. I would suggest considering carrying a little baggy of raw ground beef and snacking on that during the run. Many athletes have had great success with a raw red meat only diet, and fueling with meat during a run is critical for any distance runner.

@Ernest, thanks for the input. Questions:

Second, the long runs are too short.

How long should they be?

Third, running mileage is too low.

What should the weekly mileage be?

Run (a lot) more.

What's "a lot"?

I'm assumed this was a troll, but apparently this is actually a "thing"... and sounds like a sure-fire way to get food poisoning.

YMMV wrote:

Taking a harder look at nutrition for hard long runs is a very good idea. I would suggest considering carrying a little baggy of raw ground beef and snacking on that during the run. Many athletes have had great success with a raw red meat only diet, and fueling with meat during a run is critical for any distance runner.